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A diet's a diet's a diet, RIGHT???


Welcome to the EliteFitness.com Bodybuilding Site! Please join this discussion about A diet's a diet's a diet, RIGHT??? within the Diet & Bodybuilding category.

Excerpt: I would like to hear opinions on the pros and cons on various macro ratios for cutting diets. We all know that any diet that creates a caloric deficit will work, so long as you stick to it, but what about how you FEEL on the diet, and the ratio of muscle lost to fat. Here's what I think ... (please note I am FAR from an expert, and much of what's here is what I've picked up on these boards) (Please assume high-carb refeeds for all but straight keto, and also assume very regular meal

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  1. #1
    Elite Bodybuilder SteelWeaver's Avatar
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    A diet's a diet's a diet, RIGHT???

    I would like to hear opinions on the pros and cons on various macro ratios for cutting diets. We all know that any diet that creates a caloric deficit will work, so long as you stick to it, but what about how you FEEL on the diet, and the ratio of muscle lost to fat.

    Here's what I think ... (please note I am FAR from an expert, and much of what's here is what I've picked up on these boards)

    (Please assume high-carb refeeds for all but straight keto, and also assume very regular meal frequency, like the typical 5-6 meals a day - but of course, feel free to give any experiences or opinions you've had on any type of diet )

    Straight Keto:
    pros: supposed to lose fat much quicker, with minimal muscle loss because of ketones, loss of appetite
    cons: you feel like absolute crap, no energy, no strength, hormone levels get messed up, you may not have an appetite, but that's because you feel nauseous all the time, not super effective for oestrogenic fat, and what about the health effects of all the saturated fat? difficult to stick to (don't know - haven't actually done keto yet)

    CKD:
    pros: same as keto, but you have much more energy because of the carb-ups, hormone levels don't get as badly affected as keto (???), easier to stick to
    cons: you still have to go the whole week without any carbs, lose energy, strength, carb-cravings are worse because you allow yourself some sometimes (?), saturated fat health effects.

    33/33/33:
    pros: easy to stick to, lots of energy from carbs, very decent fat loss because carbs are very moderate, muscle loss minimal because of extra carbs
    cons: ????? are there any?

    40/40/20:
    pros: better for general health and women because of the relatively lower fat (????), higher carbs= higher energy levels=more intensity in gym=greater fat loss/less muscle loss (???)
    cons: harder to stick to because not enough fat to control appetite (???)

    50/30/20:
    pros:basically the same as 40/40/20, but maybe fewer carbs= faster fat loss?
    cons: same as 40/40/20

    high carb:
    pros: you get to eat a lot of carbs, lol! lots of energy, this diet is also cheaper than higher pro diets
    cons: appetite control difficult, fat loss is not so quick because of too many carbs

    very low fat:
    similar to high carb, but also hormone problems from not ENOUGH fat.


    So - please have at it - I'd love to hear everyone's opinions on these. Obviously there's a bunch of stuff I'm not exactly clear on, but that's why I'm posting this thread.


  2. #2
    Elite Bodybuilder Manu's Avatar
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    Great Post SteelWeaver

  3. #3
    Mutant plornive's Avatar
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    Good post.

    I like to choose diets based on energy levels in the gym. More energy means more intense workouts, more fat burning and perhaps more muscle retention.

    The idea that you can control where energy is retreived in your body based on macronutrients is not supported by much. I think working out intensely improves insulin sensitivity so much that it has much more of a "nutrient partitioning" effect than any particular macronutrient ratio. If one does not workout, then it may make sense to limit carbs due to a decrease in insulin sensitivity.

    Then there is leptin and metabolism. These may have more of a "nutrient partitioning" effect than anything else during a calorie restricted diet (not on a bulking diet).

    I think the above supports some kind of balanced diet with the occasional refeed for most people. Isocaloric seems good. Any balanced diet should do.

    For extremely fast fat-loss, I think a diet mainly consisting of protein is pretty effective.

    I don't understand why it is said that keto diets lead to faster fat-loss. Keto diets causes a greater decrease of metabolism, so why would that be?

  4. #4
    Lumbuss
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    a diet isn't good unless you are getting the right number of cals. who gives a shit about the numbers when cutting. get 1g protien per lb of bodyweight, about 20% efas, then the rest can come from carbs or whatever. ckds do suck ass though, they drop your leptin. let the fat asses do ckd's because they like butter and bacon all day. if dr atkins wasn't dead he would be coming out with low carb doughnuts and saying to eat them.

  5. #5
    Mutant plornive's Avatar
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  6. #6
    Lumbuss
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    Originally posted by plornive
    dont roll your eyes at me. tell me what was wrong with my post and why you wont get as good of results from what i said as any other diet out there. i will debate you all day and you will lose.

  7. #7
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    Interesting post. It kinda sums up all the diet questions asked on this board in one go!

    I don't know the answer (there is no ONE answer), but I would like to point out that keto diets do not have to have lots of sat fats in them. It is perfectly acceptable (even a good idea) to eat lean proteins and supplement with mono and polyunsaturated oils or oily fish instead. Also, diets high in sat fats are not necessarily bad for you if your carb intake is nil........

    I have personally dieted several times on 40:50:10 and didn't have probs with overall appetite compared to other diets I've tried. And I wouldn't say that my fatoss was any slower than other diets. But everyone is different! Bottom line like Lumbuss said is eat less than you burn somehow. Just be sure to get plenty of protein.

  8. #8
    Elite Bodybuilder SteelWeaver's Avatar
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    Forgot to mention:

    Assume that no AAS are being used.

    Also, about keto: seems it's more often recommended for obese people.

    MS: yeah, I know that healthy fats can make up the fat content of keto, but how many people, really really, are likely to choose egg whites and flaxseed oil if they can have bacon and cheese?

    Glad to hear about your exp. with higher carbs. I know I was hungrier on higher than lower carbs, but the low carbs just made me feel like total shit.

    And good point about insulin sensitivity plornive.

    What kind of stasis or maintenance are we really hoping to achieve on a fat-loss, muscle-loss minimising diet? We want to maintain insulin sensitivity, keep leptin levels up, keep cortisol down (?), keep other anabolic hormones up .... uuuhh?? I don't really know the biochem here, but there must be a list of items we want to maintain or improve if possible, whilst losing fat. Surely the diet that addressess all the items on the list is the one that would be most effective, barring individual genetic/hormonal/pathological/psycological etc. differences?

    Everyone's fond of saying "everyone's different", but we all work on basically the same biochemistry, right? Why are there so many different diets?

    And what happens when you start manipulating the extremes, like in blood's old "theoretical" post, where MS talks about gaining on one huge meal a day?

    What about some other ideas that have been floated on this board, like cutting for 2 weeks, then bulking for 2 weeks, to gain without fat?

    OK, I know I'm going off topic here, but just want to open up the field to people's experiences and questions you may have been asking yourselves.

  9. #9
    Elite Bodybuilder SteelWeaver's Avatar
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    OK, well that's what I'm looking for - opinions and experiences - so you had lots of energy on keto. But keto is with lots of fat, not just protein ...

    How was your lifting? Strength?

    Oh, I'm definitely not talking about macs! Any BB'er who eats carbs knows they should be eating low GI carbs except maybe post-workout, and those don't give you an insulin spike unless you eat a TON of them in one sitting.

    I guess what I'm really trying to do with this thread is get a summary of the various diets out there, explore what else might be possible, and get together a kind of "list" of the things we want to look out for to avoid or maintain when on diet - like I said a few posts up: what hormonal changes, energy changes, pyschological changes etc do we want to avoid, increase, decrease, or maintain when on diet.

    I'm sure that Par Deus, when he sat down to make LeptiGen, created a kind of "master-list" like what I'm talking about. He looked at all the changes that go on in the body when dieting, analysed why they happen, then set out to make something that would counteract or minimise those changes, right?

    So what's on the master-list, and what diet fulfils most of the criteria on that master list?

  10. #10
    Mutant plornive's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Lumbuss
    a diet isn't good unless you are getting the right number of cals. who gives a shit about the numbers when cutting. get 1g protien per lb of bodyweight, about 20% efas, then the rest can come from carbs or whatever. ckds do suck ass though, they drop your leptin. let the fat asses do ckd's because they like butter and bacon all day. if dr atkins wasn't dead he would be coming out with low carb doughnuts and saying to eat them.
    Yes, obviously your guidlines work. Most diets work. Read my original reply to this thread.
    Originally posted by Lumbuss
    dont roll your eyes at me. tell me what was wrong with my post and why you wont get as good of results from what i said as any other diet out there.
    Don't tell me how to make my points. You criticized keto diets without stating why. Perhaps I should have stated this.
    Originally posted by Lumbuss
    i will debate you all day and you will lose.
    Get a grip.
    Last edited by plornive; 26-Jun-2002 at 11:34 PM.

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