is ALA all its cracked up too be?

[=w=]

I have a question for anyone that can answer.

I've been reading BodyOpus by Duchaine and Lyle's book and both seem to stress the importance of lowering muscle glycogen. So assuming someone took ALA and then carbed up after a 7 day low carb/Refeed cycle (6 diet/1 refeed), wouldnt ALA do more harm then good due to the fact that muscle glycogen would'nt be depleted (although ketosis would be established) ?


Many Thanks to anyone (or everyone) who answers.

I have not read either book so I may be wrong but I was under the impression that it was liver glycogen being low that was important and muscle glycogen was of little consequence.

 

[NY Muscle]

I have not read either book so I may be wrong but I was under the impression that it was liver glycogen being low that was important and muscle glycogen was of little consequence.

100% correct

 

[MrMakaveli]

Are you guys sure?

In Lyle's book he gives a figure (70mmol/kg) that muscle glycogen should be at for optimal fat burning to take place. Also,duchaine says the effectivness of the carb-up relies upon muscle glycogen being extremely low (25-40 mmol/kg). Assuming someone was using ALA to maintain ketosis while eating carbs during the week the above figure would probably never be reached, limiting the effectivness of the carb-up.

 

[MS]

Yeah Makaveli, it makes no sense to take ALA once ketosis has been established. It is best saved for the carb up AFTER muscle glycogen has been depleted. This way you will get a better glycogen overcompensation, and it will assist with reducing transient insulin resistance that's developed during the high fat part of the diet. Taking it so you can eat carbs and remain in ketosis negates part of the purpose of doing a CKD. Sure your blood sugar will remain low, but you're not depleting your muscles. This approach would be better used with a TKD where you want to keep your muscles full/liver empty so you can maintain training intensity.

However, if you're headed for type 2 diabetes and are partly already insulin resistant, then it makes sense to take ALA whenever you eat carbs since you don't want extended HIGH blood glucose........

 

[plornive]

Yeah Makaveli, it makes no sense to take ALA once ketosis has been established. It is best saved for the carb up AFTER muscle glycogen has been depleted. This way you will get a better glycogen overcompensation, and it will assist with reducing transient insulin resistance that's developed during the high fat part of the diet. Taking it so you can eat carbs and remain in ketosis negates part of the purpose of doing a CKD. Sure your blood sugar will remain low, but you're not depleting your muscles. This approach would be better used with a TKD where you want to keep your muscles full/liver empty so you can maintain training intensity.

However, if you're headed for type 2 diabetes and are partly already insulin resistant, then it makes sense to take ALA whenever you eat carbs since you don't want extended HIGH blood glucose........

That was informative but it didn't seem to directly answer this question: Does depleted muscle glycogen enhance fat metabolism, or is depleted liver glycogen equivalent to depleted muscle AND liver glycogen as fat as fat metabolism and mobilization is concerned?

I understand the purpose of supercompensation.

 

[MS]

Ketosis requires low blood sugar (exception is type 1 diabetics) which enhances fat metabolism. Muscle glycogen is not mobilized to blood glucose, whereas liver glycogen is. So yes, you can have full muscles and be burning significant fat via ketosis. This is why a good TKD can be so successful. ALA both preferentially shuttles glucose to muscles and fat cells, as well as inhibiting hepatic gluconeogenesis, therefore keeping your blood sugar lower for longer. It's great stuff if your're attempting any kind of cyclical keto/carb diet (CKD or TKD). It's also a great antioxidant. I was just pointing out that it may inhibit muscle glycogen supercompensation if used during the keto phase of a CKD.

 

[rangerx83]

Are you guys sure?

In Lyle's book he gives a figure (70mmol/kg) that muscle glycogen should be at for optimal fat burning to take place. Also,duchaine says the effectivness of the carb-up relies upon muscle glycogen being extremely low (25-40 mmol/kg). Assuming someone was using ALA to maintain ketosis while eating carbs during the week the above figure would probably never be reached, limiting the effectivness of the carb-up.

Lyle's book is simply outdated. Even he has said so. If Lyle had kept up with current events he would realize that ALA makes a "Super Targeted Ketogenic Diet" (STKD) possible. With ALA, you can eat much more than the TKD's recommended 50grams of carbs per day, have your muscles remain hard, and still reap the fat burning benefits of being in ketosis.

Muscle glycogen plays no part in ketosis whatsoever. I was quite succesful having 200-300 gms carb/day staying in ketosis and most important of all losing nothing but fat.

You do however still need to eat below maintance calories...

rangerx83

 

[rangerx83]

Are you guys sure?

In Lyle's book he gives a figure (70mmol/kg) that muscle glycogen should be at for optimal fat burning to take place. Also,duchaine says the effectivness of the carb-up relies upon muscle glycogen being extremely low (25-40 mmol/kg). Assuming someone was using ALA to maintain ketosis while eating carbs during the week the above figure would probably never be reached, limiting the effectivness of the carb-up.

Lyle's book is simply outdated. Even he has said so. If Lyle had kept up with current events he would realize that ALA makes a "Super Targeted Ketogenic Diet" (STKD) possible. With ALA, you can eat much more than the TKD's recommended 50grams of carbs per day, have your muscles remain hard, and still reap the fat burning benefits of being in ketosis.

Muscle glycogen plays no part in ketosis whatsoever. I was quite succesful having 200-300 gms carb/day staying in ketosis and most important of all losing nothing but fat.

You do however still need to eat below maintance calories...

rangerx83

 

[plornive]

Lyle's book is simply outdated. Even he has said so. If Lyle had kept up with current events he would realize that ALA makes a "Super Targeted Ketogenic Diet" (STKD) possible. With ALA, you can eat much more than the TKD's recommended 50grams of carbs per day, have your muscles remain hard, and still reap the fat burning benefits of being in ketosis.

Muscle glycogen plays no part in ketosis whatsoever. I was quite succesful having 200-300 gms carb/day staying in ketosis and most important of all losing nothing but fat.

You do however still need to eat below maintance calories...

rangerx83

I guess it could be looked at as a keto diet but with some of the fat replace by carbs. Those carbs are shuttled to cells, leaving the blood and liver desperate enough to mobilize fat.

The confusing part (that you address above) is whether or not glycogenated muscles metabolize fat at rest. It is GOOD that they have glycogen during a lifting session so that glucose needs are not raised too much which necessitates more catabolism. It also seems likely that muscles burn fat at rest.

 

[barnidge]

Ranger what formula do you use for setting calories while cutting?