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Stew Meat
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Cognitive dissonance 
-Stew
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Hair Loss...
- Thread starter njpipes
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I was looking at molecular structure of Test, Deca and Tren, and it seems that Stew is right, everything indicates that Tren should be 5-alpha reduced.
Lets take a look how does it happen with Testosteron.
The double bond between carbons 4 and 5 gets reduced(removed) and two hydrogen atoms are added, one at carb 4 and one at carb 5.
The -alpha- in 5-alpha reductase means that the hydrogen that is added in carbon 5 is added -alpha- to the ring, and ends up under or behind the ring, when viewed in 3-D.
Now, lets look at structure of Nandrolone. It has the same double bond between same 4 and 5 carbons( very important for it to be the same, otherwise "the key" of 5-alpha reductase will not fit)
We all know that Nandrolone gets 5-alpha reduced, so comparing its structure with Test, we can have general idea of what kind of structure will underdo that conversion.
Now, lets compare structure of Nandrolone and Trenbolone:
Nandrolone
Trenbolone
As you can see Trenbolone is almost identical to Nandrolone with exception of one extra double bond in second ring and one in third, but those have no effect on 5-alpha binding.
The conclusion is that unless for some reason Trenbolone has very low affinity to 5-alpha reductase(like EQ and Dianabol do, for example) it should be 5-alpha reduced.
One more thing, even it gets 5-alpha reduced, doesn't mean that it's safe for hair, comparing to Deca, because being 3 times stronger androgen then Test, it will be reduced to still pretty much strong androgen, wich we can compare to Test, but a way stronger then DHN.
Lets take a look how does it happen with Testosteron.
The double bond between carbons 4 and 5 gets reduced(removed) and two hydrogen atoms are added, one at carb 4 and one at carb 5.
The -alpha- in 5-alpha reductase means that the hydrogen that is added in carbon 5 is added -alpha- to the ring, and ends up under or behind the ring, when viewed in 3-D.
Now, lets look at structure of Nandrolone. It has the same double bond between same 4 and 5 carbons( very important for it to be the same, otherwise "the key" of 5-alpha reductase will not fit)
We all know that Nandrolone gets 5-alpha reduced, so comparing its structure with Test, we can have general idea of what kind of structure will underdo that conversion.
Now, lets compare structure of Nandrolone and Trenbolone:
Nandrolone
Trenbolone
As you can see Trenbolone is almost identical to Nandrolone with exception of one extra double bond in second ring and one in third, but those have no effect on 5-alpha binding.
The conclusion is that unless for some reason Trenbolone has very low affinity to 5-alpha reductase(like EQ and Dianabol do, for example) it should be 5-alpha reduced.
One more thing, even it gets 5-alpha reduced, doesn't mean that it's safe for hair, comparing to Deca, because being 3 times stronger androgen then Test, it will be reduced to still pretty much strong androgen, wich we can compare to Test, but a way stronger then DHN.
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Anabolicum Mister
New member
It seems as though I've lost my only ally!
panerai said:
Anabolicum Mister
New member
O.K. I'll give it one more shot
I really can't believe that no one is getting my side of the argument. I never claimed that the possibility of trenbolone being 5-alpha reduced does not exist. In fact, I stated above that there exists that possibility. Any 3-keto-4-ene steroid has this possibility. As such, it also has the ability to be 5-beta reduced. It is general phase I A-ring steroid metabolism. But this does not mean that it must happen! Why might it not happen? Something called stereospecific metabolism might explain some of it.
Let's look at some other 3-keto-4-ene steroids. Bolasterone, boldenone (eq) and metandienone (d-bol) all fall into this category. When several doses of these drugs were administered to an individual, exactly 0% of the metabolites detected were 5-alpha reduced, and 100% were 5-beta reduced. That means that, even though they are 3-keto-4-ene steroids, they are not substrates for 5-alpha reductase. So why must trenbolone be 5-alpha reduced?
Again, you guys are providing pure speculation of which no results have been seen in the laboratory. I have at least provided scientific evidence that no 5-alpha metabolite of tren is known to exist.
I urge you to read "Metabolism of Anabolic Androgenic Steroids" by Wilhelm Schanzer and come back with some more convincing arguments.
Dr. Anabolicum Mister, Phd (Molecular Biochemistry) (maybe this will give me some pull ).
I really can't believe that no one is getting my side of the argument. I never claimed that the possibility of trenbolone being 5-alpha reduced does not exist. In fact, I stated above that there exists that possibility. Any 3-keto-4-ene steroid has this possibility. As such, it also has the ability to be 5-beta reduced. It is general phase I A-ring steroid metabolism. But this does not mean that it must happen! Why might it not happen? Something called stereospecific metabolism might explain some of it.
Let's look at some other 3-keto-4-ene steroids. Bolasterone, boldenone (eq) and metandienone (d-bol) all fall into this category. When several doses of these drugs were administered to an individual, exactly 0% of the metabolites detected were 5-alpha reduced, and 100% were 5-beta reduced. That means that, even though they are 3-keto-4-ene steroids, they are not substrates for 5-alpha reductase. So why must trenbolone be 5-alpha reduced?
Again, you guys are providing pure speculation of which no results have been seen in the laboratory. I have at least provided scientific evidence that no 5-alpha metabolite of tren is known to exist.
I urge you to read "Metabolism of Anabolic Androgenic Steroids" by Wilhelm Schanzer and come back with some more convincing arguments.
Dr. Anabolicum Mister, Phd (Molecular Biochemistry) (maybe this will give me some pull
).Well, neither in my previous post or my reply to Stew before, I agreed that Tren reduces to DHN, and actually I said, that it's impossible, if you read the whole thread, you see it.
The only thing I agree with Stew is that Tren, like Nandrolone does get reduced by 5-alpha reductase.
Hm, first of all, your saying that Nandrolone is closer to Testosteron then to Trenbolone is absolute nonsense, open any book and look up for yourself, Tren and Nandrolone are very close analogs and Nandrolone is even used in place of Tren for detection studies on Tren.
But, it's not important in our discussion. What is important is that in a first ring, double bounds between 4 and 5 carbons are identical in all three of them, means there's nothing to prevent 5-alpha reductase from reducing Trenbolone.
As for possibility of entire different configuration effecting binding affinity of 5-AR to Tren, I already pointed at it,when I mention effect of 5-AR on EQ and Dbol, and there's no need to repeat it as argument against what I said, just read paying more attention to what you are reading.
My conclusion (I know,certainly not yours, hm...did you mention "close minded" in your previous post?) is that possibility that Tren gets reduced is very high, but we certainly lack enough information on the subject.
The only thing I agree with Stew is that Tren, like Nandrolone does get reduced by 5-alpha reductase.
Hm, first of all, your saying that Nandrolone is closer to Testosteron then to Trenbolone is absolute nonsense, open any book and look up for yourself, Tren and Nandrolone are very close analogs and Nandrolone is even used in place of Tren for detection studies on Tren.
But, it's not important in our discussion. What is important is that in a first ring, double bounds between 4 and 5 carbons are identical in all three of them, means there's nothing to prevent 5-alpha reductase from reducing Trenbolone.
As for possibility of entire different configuration effecting binding affinity of 5-AR to Tren, I already pointed at it,when I mention effect of 5-AR on EQ and Dbol, and there's no need to repeat it as argument against what I said, just read paying more attention to what you are reading.
My conclusion (I know,certainly not yours, hm...did you mention "close minded" in your previous post?) is that possibility that Tren gets reduced is very high, but we certainly lack enough information on the subject.
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Personally, I'm not taking not Stew's not A.Mister's sides. The discussion itself is very interesting for me, because I'm prone to hair loss, and use Finasteride for years, and never Deca.
And,like I explained in one of the posts in this thread, in my last cycle I used Fina, 75mg/day for 12 weeks. While, before, because of use of Finasteride, Saw Palmetto, Xandrox and Nizoral my hairloss almost halt, with addition of Fina its suddenly start progressing.
It made me think that Stew may be right.
I doubt that we'll be able to find study on 5-alpha reductase and Tren, because, obviously, nobody cares about cattles hair,haha...lol!
AM, I, certainly hope that you are right in your suspicion that Tren has low affinity to 5-AR , like EQ and Dbol do, cuz I would love to be able to use it in a future cycles.
And,like I explained in one of the posts in this thread, in my last cycle I used Fina, 75mg/day for 12 weeks. While, before, because of use of Finasteride, Saw Palmetto, Xandrox and Nizoral my hairloss almost halt, with addition of Fina its suddenly start progressing.
It made me think that Stew may be right.
I doubt that we'll be able to find study on 5-alpha reductase and Tren, because, obviously, nobody cares about cattles hair,haha...lol!
AM, I, certainly hope that you are right in your suspicion that Tren has low affinity to 5-AR , like EQ and Dbol do, cuz I would love to be able to use it in a future cycles.
Anabolicum Mister
New member
Panerai,
I'm don't know why you think I am coming across as closed minded. I've admitted over and over again that the possibility of a 5AR reduction of tren exists. All I want is for someone else to look at the study that showed no 5AR metabolite of tren to see where I'm coming from. Yes it is only one study, but no one has referenced any other study to disprove it.
Your last statement has me confused. Whether tren has a high or low affinity for 5AR would make no difference to my recommending it as a drug that is easy on the hair. Whatever the reason, I don't believe it is.
I'm don't know why you think I am coming across as closed minded. I've admitted over and over again that the possibility of a 5AR reduction of tren exists. All I want is for someone else to look at the study that showed no 5AR metabolite of tren to see where I'm coming from. Yes it is only one study, but no one has referenced any other study to disprove it.
Your last statement has me confused. Whether tren has a high or low affinity for 5AR would make no difference to my recommending it as a drug that is easy on the hair. Whatever the reason, I don't believe it is.
S
Stew Meat
Guest
Well, I have nothing further to say on the issue. I've already proven my point. Thanks, Panerai for looking into the reduction...
Don't use finasteride with deca or tren.
-Stew
Don't use finasteride with deca or tren.
-Stew
Anabolicum Mister
New member
and my final comment...
Don't use tren if you are prone to hairloss or you will look like this guy..
Don't use tren if you are prone to hairloss or you will look like this guy..
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