Creeping Fascism Continues!

[NorCalBdyBldr]

Impeachment. The 2000 Election. The California Recall. The pattern is becoming clear: there's a group of men in power who will do anything to consolidate that power, including undermining our democratic institutions.

A partisan plan pushed by Karl Rove and Tom Delay will redistrict up to 7 Democrats out of Congress. Right now, 11 Democratic State Senators are hiding across state lines -- with the Texas Governor calling for their arrest -- to prevent this illegitimate plan from being strong-armed into law. They have put their reputations and careers on the line for all of us.

Background

During the 2001 session of the Texas Legislature, the legislature was unable to pass a Congressional redistricting plan as it is required to do following the decennial Census. A three judge federal panel was forced to draw the plan. Neither Governor Rick Perry or then Attorney General John Cornyn, both Republicans, objected to the plan, which was reviewed and approved by the U.S. Supreme Court.

The 2002 Congressional elections, the first held under the new redistricting plan, resulted in a Congressional delegation from Texas consisting of 17 Democrats and 15 Republicans. However, five of the 17 Democrats prevailed only because they were able to win the support of Republican and independent voters. All statewide Republican candidates carried these five districts. Most experts agree that the current plan has 20 strong or leaning Republican districts and 12 Democratic districts.

Meanwhile, the 2001 redistricting of Texas legislative seats (which was enacted by the Republican-controlled Legislative Redistricting Board, after the legislature again gridlocked in its efforts) resulted in wide Republican majorities in both the Texas House and Texas Senate. Now Tom Delay has made it his priority to force the Republican-controlled Legislature to enact a new redistricting plan to increase the number of Republican-leaning Congressional districts. Republicans believe they can manipulate the districts to elect as many as 22 Republicans out of the 32 member Texas Congressional delegation. They achieve this by packing minority voters into as few districts as possible and breaking apart rural districts so that the impact of independent voters will be reduced and suburban Republican voters will dominate.

During the regular session of the Texas Legislature, Democratic members of the Texas House of Representatives exercised an unprecedented parliamentary move to prevent the House from passing Tom Delay's redistricting plan. While Democrats are in the minority of the House of Representatives, the state constitution requires that at least 2/3 of the House be present for the House to pass a bill. Because it was clear that the Republicans would entertain no debate and brook no compromise in their effort to rewrite the rules by which members of Congress are elected, the Democrats were forced to break the quorum to prevent the bill from passing. Because the Republican Speaker of the House and Governor called on state law enforcement officials to physically compel the Democrats to return, the lawmakers removed themselves to a Holiday Inn in Ardmore, Oklahoma -- outside the reach of state troops(1). In there effort to apprehend the Democrats, Tom Delay officially sought the help of the Department of Homeland Security, the Department of Transportation and the Department of Justice.

The House Democrats (nicknamed the "Killer D's", based on an earlier episode in Texas history in which a group of Democratic state senators called the "Killer Bees" broke the quorum in the Senate over a similarly political stalemate) succeeded in stopping Delay's redistricting plan during the regular session, returning to Texas after the legislative deadline had expired for the House to pass legislation. However, because the Texas Legislature meets in regular session only every two years, the state constitution gives the Governor the power to call a 30-day special legislative session at any time between regular sessions. Despite statewide protests from Texas citizens who oppose Tom Delay's redistricting plan, the Governor has called two special sessions(2) already this summer to attempt to force the legislature to enact a new plan.

The first called session expired in a deadlock, as 12 of 31 Texas Senators(3) opposed the plan. Under Senate rules and tradition, a 2/3 vote is required to consider any bill on the floor of the Senate, giving 11 Senators the power to block a vote(4). The Republican Governor and Lieutenant Governor then determined they would do away with the 2/3 rule, and called another special session, forcing 11 Democratic Senators to break the quorum and leave the state.(5) These Senators have spent the past 22 days in Albuquerque, New Mexico.

The Governor has indicated he will continue calling special sessions until the Republican redistricting plan is enacted, despite the fact that the Republican-controlled Texas Supreme Court recently rejected the Governor's writ of mandamus filing to compel the Senators to return to the Senate. Meanwhile, eleven Democratic state senators are exiled from their state, unable to be with their families, friends, and constituents, for fear of being arrested as part of a partisan power play by Republicans. In the most recent indignity, Republican Senators voted to fine the absent Democrats up to $5,000 per day, and to revoke parking and other privileges for their staffs as long as the Senators are away.

What's at stake

At stake, on the surface, is whether Tom Delay will succeed in exploiting Republican control of the Texas Legislature to add to the Republican majority in the United States Congress. But deeper issues are also at stake.

If the Republicans succeed in redrawing the Texas Congressional lines to guarantee the election of five to seven more Republicans, it will ensure that Republicans hold the majority in the U.S. House of Representatives for the entire decade and will likely result in Tom Delay becoming Speaker of the House.(6)

The Republican advantage would be gained by removing many African American and Hispanic voters from their current Congressional districts and "packing" them into a few districts that already have Democratic majorities. The voting power of these minority voters would be dramatically diluted by the Republican plan, in contravention of the federal Voting Rights Act. If the Republicans succeed, over 1.4 million African American and Hispanic voters will be harmed. It would be the largest disenfranchisement of minority voters since the Voting Rights Act was passed.

Redistricting exists for the purpose of reapportioning voters among political districts to account for population shifts. The purpose of this reapportionment is to ensure a roughly equal number of voters in each district, to preserve the principle of "one man, one vote."(7) For this reason, redistricting has always been conducted immediately following the U.S. Census' decennial population reports. Tom Delay now proposes a new redistricting plan two years after the Census report simply because Republicans gained control over the Texas Legislature in 2002 and now have the power to enact a much more Republican-friendly plan than the one drawn by the federal courts two years ago. This is an unprecedented approach to redistricting, one that subordinates its original purpose of ensuring the principle of "one man, one vote" to the purpose of perpetual partisan politics. Redistricting, in this model, would never be a settled matter, and districts would constantly be in flux depending on the balance of political power in the Legislature.

The Texas Legislature has traditionally been defined by a spirit of bipartisanship and cooperation. This issue has polarized the legislature in a way that threatens to destroy that tradition. The Republicans have effectively exiled their Democratic counterparts in a power play that makes our state look more like a banana republic than a dignified democracy. The arbitrary decision to discard the 2/3 rule in the Senate sets a precedent that undermines that body's tradition of consensus and cooperation.
The deployment of state law enforcement officials to apprehend boycotting legislators erodes the separation of powers between the executive and legislative branches of government, and diminishes legislators' ability to represent their constituents as they see fit.

 

[DJ_UFO]

Facism?. Do you even know what is Facism?. If you are an immigrant dont bring those poor comments and ridiculous analisis to our nation. We don't have communists or facists here. Just republicans and well, unfortunatelly some democrats. But we are trying to be perfect. We'll make it sooner or later, by reason or by force.

 

[atlantabiolab]

Impeachment.

Constitutionally recognized. Nothing illegal.

The 2000 Election.

We are not a democracy, this is your immediate error.

The California Recall.

This is legal by California law. Since California strives to be the socialist center of the US, they are feeling the effects of their "democracy on demand" law for public referendum. "They made their bed, now lay in it."

The pattern is becoming clear: there's a group of men in power who will do anything to consolidate that power, including undermining our democratic institutions.

A partisan plan pushed by Karl Rove and Tom Delay will redistrict up to 7 Democrats out of Congress. Right now, 11 Democratic State Senators are hiding across state lines -- with the Texas Governor calling for their arrest -- to prevent this illegitimate plan from being strong-armed into law. They have put their reputations and careers on the line for all of us.

Background

During the 2001 session of the Texas Legislature, the legislature was unable to pass a Congressional redistricting plan as it is required to do following the decennial Census. A three judge federal panel was forced to draw the plan. Neither Governor Rick Perry or then Attorney General John Cornyn, both Republicans, objected to the plan, which was reviewed and approved by the U.S. Supreme Court.

The 2002 Congressional elections, the first held under the new redistricting plan, resulted in a Congressional delegation from Texas consisting of 17 Democrats and 15 Republicans. However, five of the 17 Democrats prevailed only because they were able to win the support of Republican and independent voters. All statewide Republican candidates carried these five districts. Most experts agree that the current plan has 20 strong or leaning Republican districts and 12 Democratic districts.

Meanwhile, the 2001 redistricting of Texas legislative seats (which was enacted by the Republican-controlled Legislative Redistricting Board, after the legislature again gridlocked in its efforts) resulted in wide Republican majorities in both the Texas House and Texas Senate. Now Tom Delay has made it his priority to force the Republican-controlled Legislature to enact a new redistricting plan to increase the number of Republican-leaning Congressional districts. Republicans believe they can manipulate the districts to elect as many as 22 Republicans out of the 32 member Texas Congressional delegation. They achieve this by packing minority voters into as few districts as possible and breaking apart rural districts so that the impact of independent voters will be reduced and suburban Republican voters will dominate.

During the regular session of the Texas Legislature, Democratic members of the Texas House of Representatives exercised an unprecedented parliamentary move to prevent the House from passing Tom Delay's redistricting plan. While Democrats are in the minority of the House of Representatives, the state constitution requires that at least 2/3 of the House be present for the House to pass a bill. Because it was clear that the Republicans would entertain no debate and brook no compromise in their effort to rewrite the rules by which members of Congress are elected, the Democrats were forced to break the quorum to prevent the bill from passing. Because the Republican Speaker of the House and Governor called on state law enforcement officials to physically compel the Democrats to return, the lawmakers removed themselves to a Holiday Inn in Ardmore, Oklahoma -- outside the reach of state troops(1). In there effort to apprehend the Democrats, Tom Delay officially sought the help of the Department of Homeland Security, the Department of Transportation and the Department of Justice.

The House Democrats (nicknamed the "Killer D's", based on an earlier episode in Texas history in which a group of Democratic state senators called the "Killer Bees" broke the quorum in the Senate over a similarly political stalemate) succeeded in stopping Delay's redistricting plan during the regular session, returning to Texas after the legislative deadline had expired for the House to pass legislation. However, because the Texas Legislature meets in regular session only every two years, the state constitution gives the Governor the power to call a 30-day special legislative session at any time between regular sessions. Despite statewide protests from Texas citizens who oppose Tom Delay's redistricting plan, the Governor has called two special sessions(2) already this summer to attempt to force the legislature to enact a new plan.

The first called session expired in a deadlock, as 12 of 31 Texas Senators(3) opposed the plan. Under Senate rules and tradition, a 2/3 vote is required to consider any bill on the floor of the Senate, giving 11 Senators the power to block a vote(4). The Republican Governor and Lieutenant Governor then determined they would do away with the 2/3 rule, and called another special session, forcing 11 Democratic Senators to break the quorum and leave the state.(5) These Senators have spent the past 22 days in Albuquerque, New Mexico.

The Governor has indicated he will continue calling special sessions until the Republican redistricting plan is enacted, despite the fact that the Republican-controlled Texas Supreme Court recently rejected the Governor's writ of mandamus filing to compel the Senators to return to the Senate. Meanwhile, eleven Democratic state senators are exiled from their state, unable to be with their families, friends, and constituents, for fear of being arrested as part of a partisan power play by Republicans. In the most recent indignity, Republican Senators voted to fine the absent Democrats up to $5,000 per day, and to revoke parking and other privileges for their staffs as long as the Senators are away.

What's at stake

At stake, on the surface, is whether Tom Delay will succeed in exploiting Republican control of the Texas Legislature to add to the Republican majority in the United States Congress. But deeper issues are also at stake.

If the Republicans succeed in redrawing the Texas Congressional lines to guarantee the election of five to seven more Republicans, it will ensure that Republicans hold the majority in the U.S. House of Representatives for the entire decade and will likely result in Tom Delay becoming Speaker of the House.(6)

The Republican advantage would be gained by removing many African American and Hispanic voters from their current Congressional districts and "packing" them into a few districts that already have Democratic majorities. The voting power of these minority voters would be dramatically diluted by the Republican plan, in contravention of the federal Voting Rights Act. If the Republicans succeed, over 1.4 million African American and Hispanic voters will be harmed. It would be the largest disenfranchisement of minority voters since the Voting Rights Act was passed.

Redistricting exists for the purpose of reapportioning voters among political districts to account for population shifts. The purpose of this reapportionment is to ensure a roughly equal number of voters in each district, to preserve the principle of "one man, one vote."(7) For this reason, redistricting has always been conducted immediately following the U.S. Census' decennial population reports. Tom Delay now proposes a new redistricting plan two years after the Census report simply because Republicans gained control over the Texas Legislature in 2002 and now have the power to enact a much more Republican-friendly plan than the one drawn by the federal courts two years ago. This is an unprecedented approach to redistricting, one that subordinates its original purpose of ensuring the principle of "one man, one vote" to the purpose of perpetual partisan politics. Redistricting, in this model, would never be a settled matter, and districts would constantly be in flux depending on the balance of political power in the Legislature.

The Texas Legislature has traditionally been defined by a spirit of bipartisanship and cooperation. This issue has polarized the legislature in a way that threatens to destroy that tradition. The Republicans have effectively exiled their Democratic counterparts in a power play that makes our state look more like a banana republic than a dignified democracy. The arbitrary decision to discard the 2/3 rule in the Senate sets a precedent that undermines that body's tradition of consensus and cooperation.
The deployment of state law enforcement officials to apprehend boycotting legislators erodes the separation of powers between the executive and legislative branches of government, and diminishes legislators' ability to represent their constituents as they see fit.

This article throws together a hodge-podge of events that are not linked and insinuates that they are orchestrated and, while superficially legal, are somehow patently illegal.

Redistricting happens all over the US, by both sides. Texas is not unusual, except in the "I'm going home" response of the Democrat members of the Texas legislature.

 

[NorCalBdyBldr]

Djufo said:

Facism?. Do you even know what is Facism?. If you are an immigrant dont bring those poor comments and ridiculous analisis to our nation. We don't have communists or facists here. Just republicans and well, unfortunatelly some democrats. But we are trying to be perfect. We'll make it sooner or later, by reason or by force.

Your ignorance is astounding. You obviously are the one that can't recognize fascism when it stares you in the face. And I guarantee that you are closer to being an immigrant than me. I am directly descended (same last name) as one of the signers of the Declaration of Independence and my family was in this country continuously since the 1600's so don't even talk to me. YOU are the immigrant as far as I am concerned.

 

[NorCalBdyBldr]

Atlantabiolab said:

This is legal by California law. Since California strives to be the socialist center of the US, they are feeling the effects of their "democracy on demand" law for public referendum. "They made their bed, now lay in it."

You also shows your ignorance as well. The circa 1905 vintage law of which you speak was written at a time in California history when certain events were taking place and there was considerable corruption going on between the railroad barrons and the governorship. I suggest you read up on history before you comment on laws you know nothing about except the rather incomplete story you get from the mainstream corporate owned for profit media that likes to tell half truths that sound good even if incorrect to sensationalize things to sell "news" and make a buck. The intent of the law was to allow the recall of a governor in the event that he partook of illegal activities and was meant to deal with issues of corruption. However, due to vague and poor wording in the law, Republican Darryl Issa, who is so far to the right, he could never win an election for governor in this state found a way to exploit the language of the law and he was the major funding for the entire recall campaign. He knows well that in a recall election in California a person can become governor with only 10% of the vote if the vote is split enough because there is no runoff election only the person with the most total votes wins. This was a power grab attempt on his part as it would be the only way someone so fascist could become governor and he does have a small but dependable voting block in places like Orange County, CA. Unfortunately for him, more moderate Republican, Arnold Schwarzenegar decide to also run on the republican ticket. This is why Darryl Issa was in tears when he pulled out because he knew that Arnie will pull more republican votes so there is no way he can grab the governorship under these circumstances even though he funded the entire recall effort. This is clearly another republican power grab technique to twist and misuse the system anyway they can to win at all costs. Yeah, technically it is legal. It is also misuse and abuse and lacks ethics which is not surprising because the modern republican party seems to have become the least ethical of all, far surpassing their democratic brethren.

What your local media probably never reported to you is that the $38 billion budget deficit can not be solved by cuts in spending alone. Currently Governor Gray Davis is laying off 16,000 state employees backing that onto the continuation of an already 2 year hiring freeze and 10 percent cuts to state employee rolls last year. The fact is that even if the State of California laid off 100% of all civil service employees, all the correctional officers, all the California Highway Patrol Officers, and all the teachers in the state, the shortfall would still be $8 billion dollars. However, the republicans in the state legislature insisted on "no new taxes" and the head of the republican caucuse stated to both the assembly republicans and the senate republicans under advisement from Karl Rove in Washington, D.C. that any republican that crosses the isle to vote with a democrat on anything that includes a tax or fee increase of ANY kind will be dead meat. He further promised to compaign in their face to make sure that their political career is over if they vote with the democrats. So a real solution is not possible without bipartisan support. It was not there so a "compromise" budget, largely dictated by the republican minority, which is not really workable but only a stop gap was passed. Unfortunately California requires a 2/3 majority to pass a budget which means that the minority party of both house now dictates the terms of any budget since the democrats do not hold a wide enough majority in either house to pass any budget without the republicans agreeing to it. Since the republicans operate in lock step goose step fashion with their fascist tendencies, and do not believe in bipartisanship of any kind anymore, and are willing to put the boat over the waterfall unless they get things 100% their way, they are in position to dictate the terms and that is what happened. The Democrats are forced to operate under damage control to keep the boat from going over the falls.

I doubt whoever is governor will be able to solve the problem and I will not find it surprising if a republican does become governor if all of a sudden, the legislative republicans become amenable to tax/fee increase under those circumstance. Bunch of hypocrites IMO of the worst kind. Like I said, they'll do anything to win at ANY cost no matter what the wreckage.

It should also be pointed out that the economy in California which was in high gear and was so strong that it was "averaging" the rest of the country from officially being declared in recession faltered because of the contrived "energy crises" in California a couple of years ago. Once again republicans like Kenny boy Lay of Enron and Duke Energy Corp of North Carolina and other energy wholesalers contrive the whole thing and also cheated the state on energy purchases that they never delivered upon. The issues is still before FERC for resolution but they have already admitted that the evidence is clear that it was contrived. These wholesale energy corporations literally wrote the energy deregulation package which was proposed by legislative republicans and signed by then republican governor Pete Wilson into law. So when the economy collapsed, you can blame the republican for that one entirely, Governor Davis inherited the whole deregulation package from the republicans. Not that I am particularly a fan of Gray Davis either. He is the one person that both republicans and democrats can agree on that they don't particularly like. So I really don't care if he gets recalled frankly. Oh, and don't forget while it was president Bush's buddy, Kenny boy Lay, that was out ripping off California (which did not vote for Bush and he has not forgotten that and like all good fascists he is vindictive as hell), Bush stated that he "would do nothing for California." So the economy fell apart. How can any business function when wholesale energy prices flutuate by 300-400% one day to the next? Oh, and while we're talking economy it is interesting to note that nearly three years into bush's presidency, we are now in the deepest recession since the great depression. NICE! Like I said, the republican will put the boat over the cliff if necessary to gain control.

 

[ArizonaFeeds]

I just PM'd YOU NorCalBdyBldr

hkgkin

 

[milo hobgoblin]

....okay how do you give Karma

NoCal deserves some Karma for that post... but I dont know how to send it... hook a brutha up.

 

[atlantabiolab]

Atlantabiolab said:


You also shows your ignorance as well. The circa 1905 vintage law of which you speak was written at a time in California history when certain events were taking place and there was considerable corruption going on between the railroad barrons and the governorship. I suggest you read up on history before you comment on laws you know nothing about except the rather incomplete story you get from the mainstream corporate owned for profit media that likes to tell half truths that sound good even if incorrect to sensationalize things to sell "news" and make a buck. The intent of the law was to allow the recall of a governor in the event that he partook of illegal activities and was meant to deal with issues of corruption. However, due to vague and poor wording in the law, Republican Darryl Issa, who is so far to the right, he could never win an election for governor in this state found a way to exploit the language of the law and he was the major funding for the entire recall campaign. He knows well that in a recall election in California a person can become governor with only 10% of the vote if the vote is split enough because there is no runoff election only the person with the most total votes wins. This was a power grab attempt on his part as it would be the only way someone so fascist could become governor and he does have a small but dependable voting block in places like Orange County, CA. Unfortunately for him, more moderate Republican, Arnold Schwarzenegar decide to also run on the republican ticket. This is why Darryl Issa was in tears when he pulled out because he knew that Arnie will pull more republican votes so there is no way he can grab the governorship under these circumstances even though he funded the entire recall effort. This is clearly another republican power grab technique to twist and misuse the system anyway they can to win at all costs. Yeah, technically it is legal. It is also misuse and abuse and lacks ethics which is not surprising because the modern republican party seems to have become the least ethical of all, far surpassing their democratic brethren.

So, I am ignorant because I am correct? Is the recall illegal? I didn't think so.

Don't worry, this precedent will set California up for a recall every time a party wishes to displace the present administration. So, the Democrats can now use this same tactic. What you fail to realize is that I could care less what happens to California, for they are the shining example of socialism in America. An utter failure.

What your local media probably never reported to you is that the $38 billion budget deficit can not be solved by cuts in spending alone. Currently Governor Gray Davis is laying off 16,000 state employees backing that onto the continuation of an already 2 year hiring freeze and 10 percent cuts to state employee rolls last year. The fact is that even if the State of California laid off 100% of all civil service employees, all the correctional officers, all the California Highway Patrol Officers, and all the teachers in the state, the shortfall would still be $8 billion dollars. However, the republicans in the state legislature insisted on "no new taxes" and the head of the republican caucuse stated to both the assembly republicans and the senate republicans under advisement from Karl Rove in Washington, D.C. that any republican that crosses the isle to vote with a democrat on anything that includes a tax or fee increase of ANY kind will be dead meat. He further promised to compaign in their face to make sure that their political career is over if they vote with the democrats. So a real solution is not possible without bipartisan support. It was not there so a "compromise" budget, largely dictated by the republican minority, which is not really workable but only a stop gap was passed. Unfortunately California requires a 2/3 majority to pass a budget which means that the minority party of both house now dictates the terms of any budget since the democrats do not hold a wide enough majority in either house to pass any budget without the republicans agreeing to it. Since the republicans operate in lock step goose step fashion with their fascist tendencies, and do not believe in bipartisanship of any kind anymore, and are willing to put the boat over the waterfall unless they get things 100% their way, they are in position to dictate the terms and that is what happened. The Democrats are forced to operate under damage control to keep the boat from going over the falls.

I doubt whoever is governor will be able to solve the problem and I will not find it surprising if a republican does become governor if all of a sudden, the legislative republicans become amenable to tax/fee increase under those circumstance. Bunch of hypocrites IMO of the worst kind. Like I said, they'll do anything to win at ANY cost no matter what the wreckage.

Of course cutting out all of the civil servants will not solve the problem of California, for it is more than state workers that is the problem. California's problem is the ideology of it's controllers; the idea that money can come indefinately from the pockets of business and workers and go to every redistribution program imaginable. California is driving businesses from the state at breakneck speeds. What company wants to set shop in a state that milks them for every dime and forces the employer to pay for excessive worker benefit programs.

Not to mention the anti-industrial environmentalists have bottlenecked any chance of building affordable buildings and homes in the state. For any building to occur, environmental studies are performed to investigate the effects of a subdivision on the three testicled cockroach, which increases the cost of homes to astronomical levels. So when the populace cannot afford to purchase homes, in steps the benevolent government to subsidize homes.

I hope California gets another free-spending socialist governor, Democrat or Republican, to continue demonstrating to the rest of the US socialism's objective flaws.

It should also be pointed out that the economy in California which was in high gear and was so strong that it was "averaging" the rest of the country from officially being declared in recession faltered because of the contrived "energy crises" in California a couple of years ago. Once again republicans like Kenny boy Lay of Enron and Duke Energy Corp of North Carolina and other energy wholesalers contrive the whole thing and also cheated the state on energy purchases that they never delivered upon. The issues is still before FERC for resolution but they have already admitted that the evidence is clear that it was contrived. These wholesale energy corporations literally wrote the energy deregulation package which was proposed by legislative republicans and signed by then republican governor Pete Wilson into law. So when the economy collapsed, you can blame the republican for that one entirely, Governor Davis inherited the whole deregulation package from the republicans. Not that I am particularly a fan of Gray Davis either. He is the one person that both republicans and democrats can agree on that they don't particularly like. So I really don't care if he gets recalled frankly. Oh, and don't forget while it was president Bush's buddy, Kenny boy Lay, that was out ripping off California (which did not vote for Bush and he has not forgotten that and like all good fascists he is vindictive as hell), Bush stated that he "would do nothing for California." So the economy fell apart. How can any business function when wholesale energy prices flutuate by 300-400% one day to the next? Oh, and while we're talking economy it is interesting to note that nearly three years into bush's presidency, we are now in the deepest recession since the great depression. NICE! Like I said, the republican will put the boat over the cliff if necessary to gain control.

California's energy problem was a mixture of corporate protectionism and government inteference. There are numerous articles demostrating how both the corporations and government were at fault for this problem. But the bottom line is still government regulation causes more problems than a free market. Here in the South, our energy market has less government regulations and we pay lower than national average for our energy.

I do not care for Bush or his administration, but to accuse Bush of causing our present economy is as ridiculous as claiming that Clinton was the cause of the economic boom of his administration.

 

[NorCalBdyBldr]

Atlantabiolab said:

So, I am ignorant because I am correct? Is the recall illegal? I didn't think so.

Obviously you have now proved you can't read either. I did not say it was illegal but I guess you are also unable to "get" the idea of ethical or abuse or misuse or twisting the poor wording of a nearly 100 year old law for political gain and seem to believe that just because an action can technically be pawned off as "legal" even though it violates the intent or purpose of the original law, it is somehow ok. Well that makes you a true republican cause you obviously have no ethics either. It is funny how in nearly 100 years, the law has never been used until a republican sees a way to cheat the system and make a power grab.


Atlantabiolab said:

I do not care for Bush or his administration, but to accuse Bush of causing our present economy is as ridiculous as claiming that Clinton was the cause of the economic boom of his administration

So, I am ignorant because I am correct? Is the recall illegal? I didn't think so.

So apparently you believe that you know more than Alan Greenspan, Chairman of the Federal Reserve, who said that Bush is doing all the wrong things for the economy and is compounding it with huge budget deficits. He also had admitted that Clinton had done all the right things and Greenspan is a republican that was first appointed by Ronald Reagan. Somehow, I suspect that he knows a bit more about economics than you do, considering his rather successful tenure through democratic or republican administrations and admittedly knock up job that he has done.

Atlantabiolab said:

Of course cutting out all of the civil servants will not solve the problem of California, for it is more than state workers that is the problem. California's problem is the ideology of it's controllers; the idea that money can come indefinately from the pockets of business and workers and go to every redistribution program imaginable. California is driving businesses from the state at breakneck speeds. What company wants to set shop in a state that milks them for every dime and forces the employer to pay for excessive worker benefit programs.

Well that is certainly news to California. Traditionally, California has managed about five thousand people per day moving to this state for years, net gain over losses to other states AND has generally managed to expand the economy so that opportunities were available for the new comers. There are a ton of companies that want to be located here, btw. I have no idea what drug induced dream or right wing publication you read gave you that idea that industry was flocking out of California. California has between the fifth to sixth largest economy in the world. It takes the rest of the United States put together to outproduce California's economy. If California's economy goes completely into the toilet into a depression, it is acknowledged by many national economists that it would literally suck the rest of the U.S. right down behind it. Your economy in Georgia, however, could fall flat on its face and not make one iota of difference to the rest of the nation and certainly not us. So enjoy your relatively tiny third world economy with free markets and low pay and no benefits. I don't see Georgia listed on the top five list of places people in the U.S. wanting to live either btw. Funny how horrible California is that it has the largest economy BY FAR of all 50 states and the highest productivity in the U.S., the lowest per capita energy usage, and is consistently ranked number one of places people in the U.S. want to live.

Atlantabiolab said:

Not to mention the anti-industrial environmentalists have bottlenecked any chance of building affordable buildings and homes in the state. For any building to occur, environmental studies are performed to investigate the effects of a subdivision on the three testicled cockroach, which increases the cost of homes to astronomical levels. So when the populace cannot afford to purchase homes, in steps the benevolent government to subsidize homes.

Housing prices in California have nothing to do with environmental laws. If you even had a concept of what a free market economy really is you would really that price is determined by demand. The town I live in went from 16,000 a few years ago to 32,000 currently and an additional 4400 new single family homes were approved by the city to be built this year and are now under construction. There were no problems with the developers getting their building permits. The problem lies in buying the land from willing sellers as we are also located in the midst of some of the most productive agricultural land in the country. Unfortunately, housing prices are high because there is an average of four buyers per available new house in this area. My own home appreciated around $100,000 this last year alone in spite of the bad economy and 6 percent local unemployment figures. And right now, the builders are building at capacity. So dream on and keep believing in your right wing propaganda even though you have no concept of market economies and pricing. You obviously no nothing of what you speak about California. You probably haven't even ever been here.

 

[atlantabiolab]

Atlantabiolab said:


Obviously you have now proved you can't read either. I did not say it was illegal but I guess you are also unable to "get" the idea of ethical or abuse or misuse or twisting the poor wording of a nearly 100 year old law for political gain and seem to believe that just because an action can technically be pawned off as "legal" even though it violates the intent or purpose of the original law, it is somehow ok. Well that makes you a true republican cause you obviously have no ethics either. It is funny how in nearly 100 years, the law has never been used until a republican sees a way to cheat the system and make a power grab.[b/]

You must be joking!?! You are a novelty in your state, for strict constructionism does not exist in California. Your officials wrote the book on revisionism of law.

Your plea to ethics is an anomoly also, for I was under the impression that Democrats did not believe in right or wrong, only opinion. Is this a default reaction used by Democrats in trouble, plea to ethics when things aren't going your way, but discard them when in control?

And no I am not a Republican.

Atlantabiolab said:


So apparently you believe that you know more than Alan Greenspan, Chairman of the Federal Reserve, who said that Bush is doing all the wrong things for the economy and is compounding it with huge budget deficits. He also had admitted that Clinton had done all the right things and Greenspan is a republican that was first appointed by Ronald Reagan. Somehow, I suspect that he knows a bit more about economics than you do, considering his rather successful tenure through democratic or republican administrations and admittedly knock up job that he has done.

Did Greenspan state that Bush's actions CAUSED the recession, as you imply, or simply that he disagrees with their usefullness at correcting a recession? Big difference.

Also, what did Clinton do that caused the 90's economic boom?? Was he a part time computer genius creating the dot. com industry? If so, was he also the cause of the dot. com failure? Do you really believe that 9/11 would not have hurt the economy if Clinton was in office?

I disagree vehemently with Bush's actions on the economy, for he is following a socialist mindset of spend without care, but that does not mean that I blame him for the economic downturn. Because I disagree with him does not mean that I blame him for all the ills of the world, as Democrats do.

Atlantabiolab said:


Well that is certainly news to California. Traditionally, California has managed about five thousand people per day moving to this state for years, net gain over losses to other states AND has generally managed to expand the economy so that opportunities were available for the new comers.

Key word: "traditionally". This is not the case today. California has lost over 1 million white non-hispanics between 2000-2001. The state's population increase is directly related to immigration of Hispanics, who I doubt are going to fill in the spaces of upper middle and high income rich individuals, who drive the economy. California's tax revenues from millionaires declined from 37% to 25% during 2000-2001, and individuals claiming millionaire status declined from 44,000 to 29,000 during this same time.

There are a ton of companies that want to be located here, btw. I have no idea what drug induced dream or right wing publication you read gave you that idea that industry was flocking out of California.

California is considered the worst state to start a business because of the Draconian tax structures and regulatory practices. Nevada and Colorado are catching the run-off of individuals and businesses who are escaping from California's "soak the rich" programs. Why would a person want to start a business in a state that hits you with high taxes and restrictive regulations, when nearby you can reap higher returns from lesser taxes?

California has between the fifth to sixth largest economy in the world. It takes the rest of the United States put together to outproduce California's economy. If California's economy goes completely into the toilet into a depression, it is acknowledged by many national economists that it would literally suck the rest of the U.S. right down behind it. Your economy in Georgia, however, could fall flat on its face and not make one iota of difference to the rest of the nation and certainly not us. So enjoy your relatively tiny third world economy with free markets and low pay and no benefits. I don't see Georgia listed on the top five list of places people in the U.S. wanting to live either btw. Funny how horrible California is that it has the largest economy BY FAR of all 50 states and the highest productivity in the U.S., the lowest per capita energy usage, and is consistently ranked number one of places people in the U.S. want to live.

Funny how things change, huh? You have a nice time in the Socialist Republic of California, with high housing costs, high gas prices, high energy costs, high taxes, etc. I'll stay here in my little third world economy, where I can buy gas at the lowest price in the nation, buy a 4 bedroom house at a price that you couldn't find an apartment for, and continue speaking English.

Atlantabiolab said:


Housing prices in California have nothing to do with environmental laws. If you even had a concept of what a free market economy really is you would really that price is determined by demand. The town I live in went from 16,000 a few years ago to 32,000 currently and an additional 4400 new single family homes were approved by the city to be built this year and are now under construction. There were no problems with the developers getting their building permits. The problem lies in buying the land from willing sellers as we are also located in the midst of some of the most productive agricultural land in the country. Unfortunately, housing prices are high because there is an average of four buyers per available new house in this area. My own home appreciated around $100,000 this last year alone in spite of the bad economy and 6 percent local unemployment figures. And right now, the builders are building at capacity. So dream on and keep believing in your right wing propaganda even though you have no concept of market economies and pricing. You obviously no nothing of what you speak about California. You probably haven't even ever been here.

To say environmental laws in California have nothing to do with the housing prices is laughable. You could read articles for days showing how your environmental programs have increased costs for housing and energy, but you would still deny it and continue living in fantasyland.

Your house appreciating by $100,000, in one year, shows a problem. Who do you think can afford 3 bedroom houses that cost $3-400,000....illegals? Do all the workers of California make $200,000/year? Even the ridiculous living wage programs couldn't help people afford houses of this cost. The high appraisal of your house does not show a strong economy, the ability to sell it does.

I have visited southern California. I was not impressed. I have not been to nothern California, but from what I have seen it is beautiful area. That does not make up for what the politicians and the citizens have done to a great state. Your state is a shining example of how not to run a state.