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"contradicting" advice on using tamoxifen while on cycle.

LowTier_Saiyan

New member
While it's not "contradicting" information, the kindle version, Anabolics, by William Llewellyn includes sample cycles.
On most cycles that use an androgenic (not anabolic), he wrote:
"estrogen support: tamoxifen (20-40mg/day)"
including cycles where users never go above 500mg of test E, per week, and there's no other compound being used. (He didn't write to use tamoxifen only if symptoms appear in this section of the book).

On many websites dedicated to PED use, there's beginner cycles of just test E, that don't recommend using tamoxifen during cycle; however, there are more advanced cycles online with multiple compounds that do recommend an AI or anti-estrogen while on cycle.

If you keep reading the book, you will find the drug profile of tamoxifen where he wrote, "It is important to note that anti-estrogen use may slightly reduce gains made during a steroid cycle...Therefore it is usually advised to identify a specific need for tamoxifen citrate before committing to its use during a cycle. Many people, in fact, find the use of an anti-estrogen unnecessary....Others, however, find they are troubled by water retention and gynecomastia even with milder (estrogenic) drugs...The estrogenic response to steroid use is very individual, and may be influenced by age and body fat percentage...".

I'm confused because on his sample cycles he didn't write this information, so why isn't he following his own advice? He wrote a whole section of the book dedicated to estrogen aromatization and cited a study where TRT patients were given tamoxifen vs. other patients who only did TRT without tamoxifen. The TRT group that DID NOT use tamoxifen had higher growth hormone and IGF-1 values than the TRT + tamoxifen group who had the values, "notably supressed".

Do you run up to 500mg / week of test E, without tamoxifen during cycle?

or

Do you run tamoxifen everyday while on cycle even on just 500mg / week of test E?

If you don't run tamoxifen during a weak cycle, and you are unlucky and notice early gyno, fat gains, and acne, wouldn't it be better to use something stronger than tamoxifen? It's my belief that it would be too late to use tamoxifen once you have early symptoms of gyno (Maybe not use letro, but something stronger than tamoxifen)
 
there is no need whatsoever to use nolvadex on cycle... unless perhaps with something like anadrol, which is just a rare circumstance.. you need an ai, preferably aromasin, on cycle... nolvadex is just an estrogen blocker, NOT an aromatase inhibitor...
 
that information was first published like in 1988 man.. today it is 2019

we have things called aromatase inhibitors now. you want to use aromasin, which didn't even exist back then

Indeed! I would like to read more updated data.
However, does using aromasin completely kills estrogen or just prevents it from giving the common side-effects: acne, water retention, and gyno?
Because if it kills estrogens, wouldn't that mean it is reducing gains by being used during a low dose cycle (e.g. Test E / 500mg a week)?

there is no need whatsoever to use nolvadex on cycle... unless perhaps with something like anadrol, which is just a rare circumstance.. you need an ai, preferably aromasin, on cycle... nolvadex is just an estrogen blocker, NOT an aromatase inhibitor...

I see, but if tamoxifen reduces androgens' gains (as mentioned in the book), wouldn't aromasin do the same if it's used during low dose cycles (e.g. Test E / 500mg a week)? This also makes me question, if running an AI during a Test E or Test C is necessary...why ins't it mentioned on websites that list beginner cycles?

(Please link me to one that mentions it. Because of the book I was reading, I'm getting confused about always running an AI during cycle every cycle, even on a simple 250mg to 500mg Test a week, versus, only if a user experiences: acne, water retention, or early gynecomastia)
 
Indeed! I would like to read more updated data.
However, does using aromasin completely kills estrogen or just prevents it from giving the common side-effects: acne, water retention, and gyno?
Because if it kills estrogens, wouldn't that mean it is reducing gains by being used during a low dose cycle (e.g. Test E / 500mg a week)?



I see, but if tamoxifen reduces androgens' gains (as mentioned in the book), wouldn't aromasin do the same if it's used during low dose cycles (e.g. Test E / 500mg a week)? This also makes me question, if running an AI during a Test E or Test C is necessary...why ins't it mentioned on websites that list beginner cycles?

(Please link me to one that mentions it. Because of the book I was reading, I'm getting confused about always running an AI during cycle every cycle, even on a simple 250mg to 500mg Test a week, versus, only if a user experiences: acne, water retention, or early gynecomastia)

The only reason an ai would reduce gains is by killing off estrogen. Aromasin increases igf levels, which is quite important. Im not sitting here today digging up studies bro. Ive been doing this a decade. Pretty sure ive learned it by now. Dont use an ai if u dont want to. Pretty cut and dry. Just dont start panicking or looking for help when u get scared about estrogen problems


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The only reason an ai would reduce gains is by killing off estrogen. Aromasin increases igf levels, which is quite important. Im not sitting here today digging up studies bro. Ive been doing this a decade. Pretty sure ive learned it by now. Dont use an ai if u dont want to. Pretty cut and dry. Just dont start panicking or looking for help when u get scared about estrogen problems


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Thank you for the info (really, not sarcastic).
I wasn't doubting your feedback, I was already confused in general because I was told to research everything needed for a cycle. I read as much as I could, and kept finding different answers [FONT=DDG_ProximaNova]=-([/FONT]

For example, in the book, Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde by [FONT=DDG_ProximaNova]Christian[/FONT][FONT=DDG_ProximaNova] Thibaudeau and Anthony Roberts. There's a cycle of 300-400mg Test E (or Test C), and [/FONT]Equipoise is listed as optional, dosed at 300-400mg.

"At this dose, not toomany side effects should occur- if any. If your nipples get sore (signaling theonset of Gyno), then 10mgs/day of Nolvadex or .5mgs/day of Arimidexcould be added in. It wouldn’t be a bad idea to keep one of those compoundson hand, just in case."

So now I have too many suggestions:
- Use AI Every other day.
- Use When nipples get sore.
- There's no need to use an AI while only using Test 500mg or less / week.
- Don't use nolvadex because it only blocks estrogens, it doesn't kill them.

This is where I'm coming from. It wasn't my intention to be rude.
 
you will find different info from different people... you do it however you want... ive been coaching for a decade and doing things a certain way which protects people and gets them the most out of what they are doing at the same time.. thats up to you to decide.. you asked a question and i gave an answer but ultimately you decide... just because you read something doesnt make it right but like i said, thats up to you.. its not like i or anyone else is getting paid and needs to convince you or something... noone loses sleep either way... i simply try to help put people in the best and safest positions possible.. beyond that, thats up to you
 
I've seen even some reputable coaches suggesting to use nolva on milder cycles. A good example would be your first cycle and if you are not very gyno prone. Although he pointed out later that it's good to have something stronger at hand if things start getting worse but that was like a last resort kind of thing.
 
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