Please critique the proposed Phenyltropic ECA formulation

[cockdezl]

"Great feedback guys.

Fonz, we have played around with Piperine in the past, and since it is basically very strong pepper, it can cause heartburn. Have you found this to be the case too? That's why I thought the Narangin was such a good idea.

Daeo, the Kava should act like a very mild benzodiazepine, not a sedative. It will not make you sleepy, but should help you not care too much about the jitters. What are everyone elses thoughts on the Kava?"

Kava is an effective sedative, but the mechanisms are not yet elucidated, as it seems to have multiple mechanisms. Valerian would be a better, more selective benzo-like choice, but it is hard to find extracts standardized with high amounts of valeric acid or valpotriates. Kava is fine, and you can definately get a good high Kavalactone extract, but there is muscle relaxant qualities that may not be desired.

Cayenne is thermogenic by virtue of the capsaicinoids, which simply cause the release of norepi from nerve terminals. With all of the norepi releasers already in your brew (E+C+Y) you may be running the well dry. The tyrosine would help replenish some catecholamine levels. Ginger, due to gingerol and other shagaols, has been shown to do a similar effect as cayenne.

Really, thinking about it, there is not going to be that much one can do, until we find something new, since we are really tapping the adrenergic system.

Micronized USP progesterone. Duchaine hinted around to progesterone's benefit during dieting, and it may be useful. If one is hypocaloric, progesterone stimulates the hell out of lipolysis, and the resulting free fatty acid levels reduce glucose metabolism, thus sparing muscle catabolism. I have always wondered if levonorgesterol would be good to use during a keto or low carb diet to preserve muscle. It is anti-estrogenic, and anabolic, since it binds (and activates) the AR. Many have heard the stories of people using Trophobolone, with no problems. Dan stated that one pro he knew used it during dieting and always came in ripped.

Damn, this post is too long.

 

[MR. BMJ]

About the cayenne, it definately makes me hotter than hell, but the stuff is pretty rough on the stomach and heartburn. Now that I mention it, it is pretty rough coming out the ass too . I haven't tried the "cool" cayenne, so I don't know if it has the same effect.

Kava Kava: Well, I definately feel this too when I take it at night as a sleep aid. However, I need to know something about this stuff, ***Is Kava Kava hard on the liver???? I have a report (i'm out of town at this time) at home stating that it may be pretty harmful on the liver. Is this true??? FONZ, GEORGE, COCKDEZL??? I haven't really researched this herb very much, and I don't know if this is a biased study. Damn, wish I was at home, I would post it!!! Have you guys heard anything along these same lines??? I'll post the study tomorrow night when I get home. Thanks.
MR. BMJ

 

[Daeo]

I've tried Kava Kava before bedtime on night I've had trouble sleeping. I was asleep within 30 minutes after taking it. So it's effective for me at least and not what I'm looking for in a fat burner...

 

[cockdezl]

MR BMJ, here is probably the article you were citing:

BMJ 2001;322:139 ( 20 January )

Papers
Drug points

Hepatitis associated with Kava, a herbal remedy for anxiety
Monica Escher, Jules Desmeules.

Division of Clinical Pharmacology and Toxicology

Emile Giostra.

Division of Gastroenterology

Gilles Mentha.

Division of Visceral Surgery, Geneva University Hospital, 1211 Geneva 14, Switzerland

Kava, the rhizome of the pepper plant Piper methysticum, has been widely used in the South Pacific as a narcotic drink. Lactones, the major constituents of kava, are considered to be pharmacologically active and are sold in Europe and the United States as standardised extracts for anxiety and tension.

A 50 year old man presented to his doctor because of jaundice. He had noticed fatigue for a month, a "tanned" skin, and dark urine. The medical history was unremarkable apart from slight anxiety, for which he had been taking three to four capsules of kava extracts daily for two months (maximum recommended dose three capsules) corresponding to a dose of 210-280 mg lactones (Laitain, Schwabe, Switzerland). He took no other drugs and did not consume alcohol. Liver function tests showed a 60-fold and 70-fold increase in aspartate aminotransferase and alanine aminotransferase concentrations, respectively. Alkaline phosphatase concentration was 430 IU/l (normal range 30-125), -glutamyltransferase 691 IU/l (9-35), lactate dehydrogenase 1132 IU/l (125-240), and total and conjugated bilirubin 279.2 µmol/l (6.8-25) and 212.3 µmol/l (1.7-8.6), respectively. Prothrombin time was 25%. The patient was admitted to hospital. Ultrasonography showed a slight increase in liver size but no ascites or portal vein thrombosis. Blood tests for hepatitis A, B, C, and E, HIV, cytomegalovirus, and Epstein-Barr virus gave negative results. The patient's condition deteriorated within 48 hours. He developed stage IV encephalopathy and had to be intubated. Prothrombin time was then 10%. The patient received a liver transplant two days later. He recovered uneventfully. On examination the liver was atrophic, and the subhepatic and portal veins were free. Histology showed extensive and severe hepatocellular necrosis and extensive lobular and portal infiltration of lymphocytes and numerous eosinophils.

Heavy consumption of kava has been associated with increased concentrations of -glutamyltransferase, suggesting potential hepatotoxicity.1 A case of recurring necrotising hepatitis has been reported.2 In our patient a relation between ingestion of kava and fulminant hepatic failure is supported by the chronology, histological findings, and exclusion of other causes of hepatitis. Assessment of causality according to the definitions of the World Health Organization is probable. Acute liver failure with a fatal outcome or that necessitates liver transplant has been attributed to various herbal preparations.3-5 This case illustrates the importance of inquiring about the use of over the counter health products. It was reported to the Swiss Pharmacovigilance Center in Berne.

 

[MR. BMJ]

Yep that's it...damn that was a good guess. How credible would you guys say this article is? It sounds kind of harsh, and I haven't seen/heard of very many people with liver problems from its use besides the ones from this article. BUT, I am no expert with this herb.
MR. BMJ

 

[cockdezl]

BMJ, I think it is a valid article, since it really is just a case study. All phyto-pharmaceuticals have the potential for harm, and this supports that notion, but you still have to look at the track record of something before jumping the gun. Pacific Islanders have been drinking Kava by the gallons and there IS evidence of side effects by chronic consumption, including icthyosis ("fish skin"), certain types of anemias, lower body weight, obvious cognitive impairment and risk of accidents during Kava intoxication, and an increase in hepatic gamma-glutamyltransferase levels. But these effects are most notable in chronic, "heavy" users of Kava...sounds similar to the US' alcohol problem.

Other authors stated that the increase in hepatic enzyme levels may simply be an induction effect of Kava (similar to steroids altering certain liver enzymes, or phenobarbitol induced liver alterations), and not a true elevation due to damage.

There is no hard evidence that Kava is hepatotoxic, but this is evidence that it has the potential in some.

 

[MR. BMJ]

Thanks cockdezl, i've had this article for awhile and forgot about it. So I guess it's still kind of in limbo then. I'll probably stay away from it until more research is done on it then.

Levonorgesterol....is this stuff easily accessible or not? I will be doing my CKD diet for another 2-4 weeks and could be a guinea pig if I can get it. I've been feeling a little crazy lately. I don't know anything about it though. Is it illegal? Also, where would I even go about getting this stuff, you peaked my interests!!! E-mail me if you feel it is more appropriate, I don't want to ruin George's thread, unless he doesn't mind either. Thanks man!
MR. BMJ

 

[therealj]

cockdezl, not that I just realized it...but you are a wise man

 

[ghans]

Hey George

I really like the original Phenyltropic product. Adding ingredients may make it better, but I'd still like to afford it.

 

[cockdezl]

BMJ, levonorgestrel is a progestagen. It is the active ingredient in Norplant, and one of the "morning after" pills. It is an ingredient in several birth control combinations, but the above two are the only single ingredient products I know of.