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My Experience With SARMS


Welcome to the EliteFitness.com Bodybuilding Site! Please join this discussion about My Experience With SARMS within the Anabolic Steroids category.

Excerpt: SARMS: Will It Soon Make Steroids Obsolete? As you may have heard, SARMS is a fascinating step in the field of anabolic enhancement. It’s a drug that is “selective” in its muscle building properties in that instead of having all the effects of testosterone, it essentially is targeted specifically to muscle. In this way most of the negative side effects are avoided. A dream drug, right? Well, maybe. But there’s a catch. There’s always a catch. But in a straight up evaluation

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  1. #1
    Nelson Montana's Avatar
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    My Experience With SARMS

    SARMS: Will It Soon Make Steroids Obsolete?

    As you may have heard, SARMS is a fascinating step in the field of anabolic enhancement. It’s a drug that is “selective” in its muscle building properties in that instead of having all the effects of testosterone, it essentially is targeted specifically to muscle. In this way most of the negative side effects are avoided. A dream drug, right? Well, maybe. But there’s a catch. There’s always a catch. But in a straight up evaluation SARMS is pretty damn impressive.

    I won’t get too much into the science. I’m not sure even the experts can tell you how and exactly why this stuff works. Oh sure, they’ll tell you about molecule rings and subdivisions of nano particles and all that, but nobody seems to know the full story and the bottom line on all of this is it’s application for bodybuilding purposes and in that regard, SARMS is so new, it’s really a matter of speculation and personal experience. This is mine.

    I’m not big on experimentation or pioneering at this stage of my life, but SARMS was too intriguing to pass up, so I gave it a go. I kept dosages at 30 mls, reason being there’s a weird side effect of blurred vision at higher dosages. It isn’t so much the side effect itself that bothers me as much as WHY this side effect occurs that CONCERNS me. (Answers? Anyone?) Also, anecdotal evidence shows that mega dosing does not bring significantly increased results. Like many drugs, such as aspirin, there’s a “sweet spot” where this stuff works best. Plus, contrary to claims that SARMS is non suppressive some studies show that it indeed is suppressive at high dosages or over extended periods of time. This is only logical. I’ve made this argument about Proviron. The literature says it does not suppress but that is under controlled conditions. ANY exogenous source of anything MUST be suppressive to some degree.

    Right off the bat I heard the taste was awful so I put the drops in a capsule and took it that way. As far as how I’d apply the dosing, I debated whether I should keep my standard 100mgs a week of HRT or replace it completely with the SARMS. I decided it would be most accurate to split the difference and do a half dose. In this way I didn’t rely too much on the SARMS, nor would the fact that it was “extra” distort my perspective.

    No doubt, the stuff works. Within a few days I started felling mildly“ juiced” -- not super explosive gains, (though I used a conservative dosage) but a little denser, harder and fuller, so I know it’s effective and that’s all I need to know. At this point, I don’t need to gain 20 pounds, nor do I have the inclination to do so. There’s been no bloat at all, which was nice. Libido was good. On occasion, I run a double dose of HRT and this was very similar.

    It became apparent to me that in terms of effects, this stuff was very similar to oral Primobolan, which is also a non 17AA oral that is non suppressive at low dosages. And although SARMS isn’t cheap, anyone who’s used oral Primobolan knows that it’s a real bank account breaker and ultimately impractical. SARMS is an attractive alternative.

    So how can this stuff best be used? That’s up to the user. For guys looking to do a cycle with fewer sides, it makes a great stack with most anything. For advocates of short cycles you can probably start the cycle with SARMS (with minimal suppression) and even taper off with it after PCT begins. In that way you can stretch a 6 week cycle into a 10 week cycle with little or no further suppression. I see no benefit of using it as a part of PCT however. I assume it will not restore HPTA function. I don't see how it could. I may be wrong.

    In my case, I’m considering using it as an occasional alternative HRT. Once every 2 months I do a shot of either HCG or HMG and then use a half dosage of T for a week or two. (Since natural T is elevated). Using SARMS in place of the enanthate seems like a logical choice since it would extend the effects of the HCG and HMG. I may be able to use them less often. We’ll see. Anthony Roberts has said he’s completely replaced his standard HRT with SARMS and would never go back. Then again, Anthony is still in his 20’s. Things change as you get up in years.

    Since SARMS is far more anabolic than testosterone (again, similar to Primobolan or Anavar), it requires massive amounts of protein to show its true muscle building potential. A high protein diet is essential as well as having some protein drinks or maybe some GEAR on hand to fill in the gaps. I can’t say for sure what a cycle of SARMS would be like though my gut instinct tells me some testosterone would still be needed for best gains. Then again, doing that sort of thing defeats the purpose, doesn’t it?

    If the idea of increased anabolism without suppression appeals to you, (and why not? ) then maybe some SARMS is the way to go. Experienced juicers may miss the benefit of the increased libido and aggression that goes along with a cycle with testosterone though. I guess it all depends on how greedy you want to get. : )

    Personally, I wouldn’t mind seeing more tests on this stuff. Exactly how much does it raise total T? How about FreeT? DHT? Does it have the pro-heart factor of real testosterone? Does it avoid ALL potential prostate problems? How are lipid and liver values after long term use? How suppressive is it at mega doses for muscle building purposes? Maybe the point is moot because of the vision problems. Applications as of now appear a bit limited, but that’s not to say they’re without merit. Rememeber, there aren’t any tests on veterinary steroids either. Not on humans at least. Why does EQ cause anxiety? Why does Tren cause coughing? That’s enough to keep me away, but to others, it’s just a mild inconvenience. The results are worth it. Are the results of SARMS worth it? Then again, maybe they’re LESS risky than any steroid. That’s the big question. And a fascinating on at that, wouldn’t you say?

    There have been a lot of new supplements on the market this year, and a few more coming out in 2010,some of which I am proud t have helped design. It’s exciting to see new potential. But the thing with all these supplements is that they’re using time tested natural ingredients. When it comes to chemical manipulations, be it the form of a pro-hormone or a research chemical, the “unknown” factor is far greater, even if the science is more sophisticated.

    I don’t think SARMS will ever be a “sole” compound for anyone looking for massive gains. So that puts us at square one. Where does this stuff belong? Or maybe, just maybe, it’s the first step in a new direction of anabolics.

    For now, I’d be conservative with SARMS. Although it’s touted as a healthier alternative to testosterone, there’s still a big question mark regarding long term effects. The bottle reads “Not for human consumption” so obviously this is not legal or approved for any purpose. But the more adventurous among you may want to replace one of the compounds in your next cycle with a dosing of SARMS and see for yourself how it works out for you. I would, however, like to see the legit companies come out and openly discuss applications. Those familiar with AG guys know the frustration of hiding behind the “you’re not supposed to take this but… wink, wink, “ approach. Why not be up front with the community you’re dealing with? If the authorities are going to come down on these companies I doubt the “For research only” disclaimer is going to make much difference. Meanwhile, I believe a lot of consumers would feel better if the product was what it claimed, especially since ANYBODY can use the SARMS title, even if it isn’t legitimate SARMS. There are even SARMS “supplements” which have absolutely no active ingredients. They’re just cashing in on the name and using the SARMS literature as a marketing hype.

    So is SARMS too good to be true or is it the wave of the future? Maybe it’s something in-between. If it turns out to be nothing more than a mild anabolic with few side effects it may very well be a nice addition to the bodybuilders lifestyle. But be careful. Since the stuff in not regulated there’s already a bunch of bogus stuff floating around. Proceed with caution – on all fronts. For me, I’ll continue to use it in moderation. For now.
    Last edited by Nelson Montana; 15-Dec-2009 at 12:22 PM.
    NPC Championships Age 59

  2. #2
    NorCal Bodybuilder doublebicep's Avatar
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    Re: My Experience With SARMS

    Nicely done Nelson. I have been waiting to hear from you about SARMs.

    this stuff was very similar to oral primobolan
    I have heard it compared to Anavar as well.

    Or maybe, just maybe, it’s the first step in a new direction of anabolics.
    Maybe! We might just look back in a few years and view AAS as archaic.
    Last edited by doublebicep; 15-Dec-2009 at 02:55 PM.

  3. #3
    Elite Mentor sweed's Avatar
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    Re: My Experience With SARMS

    Nice write up! I would love to see some blodd tests as well and why the vision sides occur, although I have read one reason.

    I would like to know how much one could possibly gain after a 4 week 'cycle' of 50mgs ed. That would be nice. I might consider this right after pct for this beast/katana I am running right now. Hope this would work well while cutting 'naturally'

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    Banned truckdaddy's Avatar
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    Re: My Experience With SARMS

    Quote Quote posted by sweed View Post
    Nice write up! I would love to see some blodd tests as well and why the vision sides occur, although I have read one reason.

    I would like to know how much one could possibly gain after a 4 week 'cycle' of 50mgs ed. That would be nice. I might consider this right after pct for this beast/katana I am running right now. Hope this would work well while cutting 'naturally'
    Nice write up,

    Is Sarms an alternative to dbol? No, if your looking for the swollin dbol look, this is not your compound.

    If you are looking for the "beach body" look or if you need a funtional compound(undetectabble as wel) that will make you, stronger,faster and leaner and not shut down your HPTA....bingo...you have found it.

  5. #5
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    Re: My Experience With SARMS

    Here are some papars on SARMS

    In Vivo Metabolism and Final Disposition of a Novel Nonsteroidal Androgen in Rats and Dogs — DMD

    Pharmacodynamics of Selective Androgen Receptor Modulators — JPET

    Pharmacological and X-Ray Structural Characterization of a Novel Selective Androgen Receptor Modulator: Potent Hyperanabolic Stimulation of Skeletal Muscle with Hypostimulation of Prostate in Rats -- Ostrowski et al. 148 (1): 4 -- Endocrinology

    Selective Androgen Receptor Modulator Treatment Improves Muscle Strength and Body Composition and Prevents Bone Loss in Orchidectomized Rats -- Gao et al. 146 (11): 4887 -- Endocrinology

    Modifying muscle mass - the endocrine perspective -- Solomon and Bouloux 191 (2): 349 -- Journal of Endocrinology

    Nonsteroidal Selective Androgen Receptors Modulators (SARMs): Designer Androgens with Flexible Structures Provide Clinical Promise -- Brown 145 (12): 5417 -- Endocrinology

    Just remember that the only clinical study so far is a Phase II Ostarine (MK-2866) Cancer Cachexia Clinical Trial by GTX which used doses of no more than 3mg per day - not per kg

    GTx Presents Phase II Ostarine (MK-2866) Cancer Cachexia Clinical Trial Results at Endocrine Society Annual Meeting


    This preliminary study on S-4 in rats found that anabolism in muscle was maxed out at around 0.75 mg or 2.82 mg/kg per day

    Pharmacodynamics of Selective Androgen Receptor Modulators
    PubMed Central, Fig. 5: J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 2003 March; 304(3): 1334–1340. doi: 10.1124/jpet.102.040840.

    When corrected for body surface area and converted to dosing for humans, the dose that maxes out the anabolic response would be around 0.46 mg/kg. In a 200 lb male, that works out to about 40 mg/day.

    Here's a paper on converting animal doses to humans

    Dose translation from animal to human studies revisited -- Reagan-Shaw et al. 22 (3): 659 -- The FASEB Journal

    As the abstract states, "The animal dose should not be extrapolated to a human equivalent dose (HED) by a simple conversion based on body weight..." The FDA has stated that the extrapolation of animal dose to human dose is correctly performed only through normalization to body surface area. To convert mg/kg in rats to mg/kg in humans, you multiply by 0.162 (6/37). For mice to humans, multiply by 0.081 (3/37). There are several other values for other animals.


    Pharmacokinetics of S-3-(4-acetylamino-phenoxy)-2-hydroxy-2-methyl-N-(4-nitro-3-trifluoromethyl-phenyl)-propionamide in rats, a non-steroidal selective androgen receptor modulator

    Analysis of variance showed no significant difference in the CL of S-4 at doses of 0.5, 1 and 10 mg kg−1 ( p>0.05). Previous in vivo studies in the present authors' laboratory showed that the dose required to restore the levator ani muscle weight in castrated animals, an indicator of anabolic activity, compared with that of intact animals was less than 4 mg kg−1 day−1 (Yin et al. 2003). Thus, S-4 demonstrates linear pharmacokinetics within the dose range needed to exert maximal pharmacological effects.

    The lack of parent drug in the urine suggests that S-4 is extensively metabolized. Assuming a hepatic blood flow of 13.8 ml min −1 in the rat (Davies and Morris 1993), the hepatic extraction ratio of S-4 would be less than 0.05. Based on this hepatic extraction ratio, a greater than 95% bioavailability (i.e. less than 5% of the drug would be removed by first-pass metabolism) is predicted. The present results confirmed this prediction, as S-4 was completely bioavailable following pharmacologically relevant doses (i.e. doses ≤ 10 mg kg−1).

    The CL of S-4 at a dose of 0.5 mg kg−1 (1.92 ml min−1 kg−1) was significantly ( p<0.001) greater than that observed for the 30 mg kg−1 dose (1.00 ml min−1 kg−1). These data suggest that saturation of the drug-metabolizing enzymes might be occurring at this higher dose. Therefore, one would expect to see further suppression of CL following doses greater than 30 mg kg−1. However, due to the potency of S-4, the authors do not anticipate the need for such high doses during clinical use. Forthcoming data from the present authors' laboratory will provide needed information about the hepatic metabolism and pharmacokinetics of S-4 in this and other species.

    The pharmacological activity and pharmacokinetics of S-4 in rats suggest that this compound has the properties of an ideal SARM as defined by Negro-Vilar (1999). It is rapidly absorbed following p.o. doses (tmax, 48−84 min), and it exerts tissue-specific anabolic effects in vivo, with anabolic effects in muscle and bone but lesser effects in the prostate and seminal vesicles (Kearbey et al. 2003, Yin et al. 2003). These properties coupled with forthcoming reports from the present authors' laboratory about the pharmacological effects of S-4 in other pertinent animal models and its pharmacokinetics and metabolism in dogs and humans, favour the continued development of S-4 as an orally bioavailable non-steroidal SARM.

    So - at a dose of .5mgs/kg/day - you're only looking at a dose of appx 8mgs for a 100kg human!

  6. #6
    Amateur Bodybuilder Drewb's Avatar
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    Re: My Experience With SARMS

    Very nice..

  7. #7
    ceo's Avatar
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    Re: My Experience With SARMS

    Quote Quote posted by Nelson Montana View Post
    I kept dosages at 30 mls, reason being there’s a weird side effect of blurred vision at higher dosages. It isn’t so much the side effect itself that bothers me as much as WHY this side effect occurs that CONCERNS me. (Answers? Anyone?).
    I stated this in another thread:

    Quote Quote posted by ceo View Post
    As for the vision problems, well there are Androgen Receptors in the eye. This would have to effect the rods (2 photoreceptors in the eye - rods and cones) as the rods are responsible for night vision. I'm not going to go on about that, but will just reiterate that this seems to only be a problem at higher doses. Users have reported that vision sides disappear very quickly when usage is stopped.
    So, my assumption is at high doses the targeted receptors are saturated and the stuff attaches to receptors elsewhere (eyes). But that's just a guess (sounds good/logical though doesn't it?).

  8. #8
    Banned truckdaddy's Avatar
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    Re: My Experience With SARMS

    What was your dose and how long did you run it for?

  9. #9
    Pro Bodybuilder 2evil's Avatar
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    Re: My Experience With SARMS

    Interesting, well thought out piece Nelson. What is the legal view of SARMS? Is it a controlled substance or a research chemical?

  10. #10
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    Re: My Experience With SARMS

    Great review Nelson!
    I consider SARMS at this point as "too good to be true". The potential benefits are great, but we DO NOT KNOW the real short and long term side effects. That simple fact could kill the dreamed peptide.

    SARMS are the first step in a future world of muscle enhancement, that is still far in the future. However, the first revolutionary use of SARMS will be TRT.

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