Friend got rolled with juice ...

[Njuice]

Re: Re: Laws of search and seizure

Not knowing the whole story and you just giving the jist of it, everyone is going off what you say. As an ex cop, in Texas, I can tell you this. There is a difference between being "searched" and frisked. A search is an invasive procedure. A frisk can simply be done thru the outer portions of a person's clothes for weapons and weapons alone, by running the hands over that person's outer portion of clothing. Based on the time of stop, the area he was stopped in, his movements in the car at the time of the stop (furtive movements), his mannerisms, reactions to questions asked, etc.etc. are all articulable as to why a frisk for weapons were involved. Now, if the officer felt the vials in his pockets, which I am sure he/she did, said officer can ask for permission to go into his pocket to satisfy his/her curiousity that they aren't carrying anything illegal. If he gave the officer consent, well then tough shit for you. If the officer stuck their hands in your friend's pocket without consent and with them not being under arrest then yes, you have an illegal search. I never placed someone under arrest while trying to find a valid ID, which is simple to do provided the person gives you a valid name and date of birth.

You can play word games with a vehicle inventory but the fact of the matter is, a vehicle inventory is used to "search" for illegal contraband just as much as it is to list valuable items before the vehicle is towed and stored.

It always helps to have the "real" story. The fact of the matter is, it is all in how the officer writes the report and covers his/her actions. Any traffic offense in Texas, except for speeding and open container of alcohol are arrestable, thereby leaving you open for an arrest, search incident to arrest, and a vehicle inventory.

What happened was when she frisked him he had his hands behind his head and when she felt the vails she dug her hand in the pocked at took them out ... they were in there boxes so i'm sure she didn't think that they were weapons ... what's sad is he got pulled over in his own housing complex, 30 seconds from his house, she looked him up in the computer and saw that he lived there, he asked if he could have his brother bring his ID from the house and she said no ... bad situation, we'll see what happens

 

[ClenAche]

sorry Baby Gorilla. not trying to nit pick or be disrespectfully, just trying to give a bro accurate info. trust me, i do this for a living as a crim def. atty. ive had several cases at the appellate level in fla. where ive created precedents and changed case law. the reason im so busy is b/c many cops, prosecutors, and others have difficulty understanding 4th Amendment law fully. a few points:
1. arrest is not always w/in an officers discetion--particularly when its not a crime as here. but even w/ crimes an ex. would be misdemeanors occuring outside the officers presence.
2. "anything" to stop a car does not necc mean it can be used for an arrest. PC to stop a car is sometimes very far away from PC to effectuate an arrest.
3. no, just b/c u can be fined does not make it criminal. all over florida's motor vehicle code (ch. 316) it specifically states most offenses as "noncriminal infraction, punishable as ... "blah, blah, blah (usually some fine).
Syphonfilter spells out the law accurately, also. the only thing i could say there is that in fla, many other traffic offenses are not arrestable, but then again, he is in Texas and every jurisdiction is different. also, in fla, not having your DL while driving is not arrestable, nor is a summons (we call them notice to appear (NTA) which are given in lieu of arrests) issued. a finger print is put on the citation, and again, its a noncriminal traffic infraction. sorry for the long post, just trying to help people out. better get back to my own clients now.

 

[[email protected]]

Syphonfilter, Texas! Better than NYC...

I was NYPD for about 5 years and damn; all you see are illegal searches. It's "normal" to roll someone then toss them away. Like fishing.

Personally I really never rolled anyone and if they were straight up I would usually give them their shit back as long as it wasn’t a gun or something really friggin stupid. Weed, a pipe, etc. as long as they were ok from the start I was ok with them too. If it was a little “questionable” I had them toss it into a sewer in front of me because I obviously didn’t see it.

Make no mistakes. NYC is loaded with illegal searches, beatings, and other major issues that would make your head spin. Everything you can imagine happens and I have witnessed it. That’s one of the reasons I got out. I can’t really agree with having 5 boys in blue beat the living shit out of someone then dragging him in with some bullshit charge. I have even seen MAJOR beatings where the perp was tossed out into weeds doing 40MPH when they didn’t know what to do with the bloody pulp.

Call me a fucking rat but Internal Affairs didn’t want to hear shit. Remember the Crown Heights riots. Well, it didn’t really happen like they said it did and when I came forward I found myself two boroughs away in the rain most of the time. Later when they thought they could use me in an illegal shooting where an office shot an unarmed person in the back 3x then “found” the handgun that “he” had. It was ugly… NYPD is all fucked up.

 

[MoreBeefPlease]

stupid is as stupid does

 

[Njuice]

sorry Baby Gorilla. not trying to nit pick or be disrespectfully, just trying to give a bro accurate info. trust me, i do this for a living as a crim def. atty. ive had several cases at the appellate level in fla. where ive created precedents and changed case law. the reason im so busy is b/c many cops, prosecutors, and others have difficulty understanding 4th Amendment law fully. a few points:
1. arrest is not always w/in an officers discetion--particularly when its not a crime as here. but even w/ crimes an ex. would be misdemeanors occuring outside the officers presence.
2. "anything" to stop a car does not necc mean it can be used for an arrest. PC to stop a car is sometimes very far away from PC to effectuate an arrest.
3. no, just b/c u can be fined does not make it criminal. all over florida's motor vehicle code (ch. 316) it specifically states most offenses as "noncriminal infraction, punishable as ... "blah, blah, blah (usually some fine).
Syphonfilter spells out the law accurately, also. the only thing i could say there is that in fla, many other traffic offenses are not arrestable, but then again, he is in Texas and every jurisdiction is different. also, in fla, not having your DL while driving is not arrestable, nor is a summons (we call them notice to appear (NTA) which are given in lieu of arrests) issued. a finger print is put on the citation, and again, its a noncriminal traffic infraction. sorry for the long post, just trying to help people out. better get back to my own clients now.

thanks for all the info, but i'm in california and i'm sure the laws are a little different here than in florida .... Anyone an expert in the laws in california

 

[Syphonfilter]

Hey dude.

When it comes to search and seizure laws, you can count on all states being the same as they are set by Federal guidelines, i.e the 4th Amendment. One thing I can tell you NJuice is that IF, and only IF, your buddy can prove that the officer stuck her hand in his pants after a frisk WITHOUT CONSENT he stands a better chance of having the case thrown out or evidence surpressed (sp?). Mind you that a Terry Frisk is done on the outer portion of the clothing for WEAPONS AND WEAPONS alone. I learned the hard way, and this is something that many many many police officers don't know, that you just can't stick your hands in people's pockets and start pulling out items. You can ask if the person minds if you check but until they are under arrest, you cannot legally perform a search. The fact that your friend was pulled over in his apartment complex as if he had just left the public roadway and committed an offense (and it's nearly impossible to drive anywhere in the US more than 50 feet without committing an offense!!) the officer still had PC to pull your buddy over. The best thing you can hope for is a video mounted camera in the patrol unit which would show what happened and if they have that, I bet you they have audio too. The attorney seems to be right in that the officer performed an illegal search, realized "Oh shit, he's got roids." And then to cover her ass, she hooked him up on traffic charges and said, "Oh my, look what I found search incident to a lawful arrest." Sad thing is, it's gonna be really hard to prove.

To the bro from NYPD: That's fucked up and it goes on throughout the US I'm sure. I can't say I didn't whoop on someone but it was always during a fight and not just for no reason, once it was over though it was over. I treated everyone with respect as long as I was treated accordingly as well. My story ended with being fucked by being singled out for a steroid test and coming back positive with three AAS, two of which I had never taken in my life. My career is over since May of this year and I am trying one last place to get onto as it is all I really know how to do but I'm a pessimist and I won't believe I am hired until it happens.

NJuice, keep the post updated with any new bit of info you can find out and I'm sure that any of the ex or present cops or attorneys might be able to find something that can help your buddy. My argument as a cop was always, when was the last time you heard of an officer being killed over steroids, personally, I haven't, but hundreds have died over cocaine, weed, heroin. Enforcing laws against roids was and always will be a waste of time for law enforcement. Maybe if more of my former bros and sister's in blue spent time in the gym they'd be more sympathetic to what it takes to stay in shape. Unfortunately that is not the case.

Y'all take care.

 

[PopiChulo]

A low was passed recently that if you are pulled over without ID that is probable cause to search the vehicle. Atleast here in Cali

 

[Njuice]

Hey dude.

When it comes to search and seizure laws, you can count on all states being the same as they are set by Federal guidelines, i.e the 4th Amendment. One thing I can tell you NJuice is that IF, and only IF, your buddy can prove that the officer stuck her hand in his pants after a frisk WITHOUT CONSENT he stands a better chance of having the case thrown out or evidence surpressed (sp?). Mind you that a Terry Frisk is done on the outer portion of the clothing for WEAPONS AND WEAPONS alone. I learned the hard way, and this is something that many many many police officers don't know, that you just can't stick your hands in people's pockets and start pulling out items. You can ask if the person minds if you check but until they are under arrest, you cannot legally perform a search. The fact that your friend was pulled over in his apartment complex as if he had just left the public roadway and committed an offense (and it's nearly impossible to drive anywhere in the US more than 50 feet without committing an offense!!) the officer still had PC to pull your buddy over. The best thing you can hope for is a video mounted camera in the patrol unit which would show what happened and if they have that, I bet you they have audio too. The attorney seems to be right in that the officer performed an illegal search, realized "Oh shit, he's got roids." And then to cover her ass, she hooked him up on traffic charges and said, "Oh my, look what I found search incident to a lawful arrest." Sad thing is, it's gonna be really hard to prove.

To the bro from NYPD: That's fucked up and it goes on throughout the US I'm sure. I can't say I didn't whoop on someone but it was always during a fight and not just for no reason, once it was over though it was over. I treated everyone with respect as long as I was treated accordingly as well. My story ended with being fucked by being singled out for a steroid test and coming back positive with three AAS, two of which I had never taken in my life. My career is over since May of this year and I am trying one last place to get onto as it is all I really know how to do but I'm a pessimist and I won't believe I am hired until it happens.

NJuice, keep the post updated with any new bit of info you can find out and I'm sure that any of the ex or present cops or attorneys might be able to find something that can help your buddy. My argument as a cop was always, when was the last time you heard of an officer being killed over steroids, personally, I haven't, but hundreds have died over cocaine, weed, heroin. Enforcing laws against roids was and always will be a waste of time for law enforcement. Maybe if more of my former bros and sister's in blue spent time in the gym they'd be more sympathetic to what it takes to stay in shape. Unfortunately that is not the case.

Y'all take care.

SYphon - thanks for all the info, you've been a great help, I'll keep you guys posted on what happens.
thanks again

 

[Baby Gorilla]

The short story....

No matter what the law is in your area, if you get searched (legally or not), and they find your gear, you're out the gear....period. So don't be stupid.

 

[ClenAche]

SyphonFilter
im impressed w/ your knowledge of 4th A. Most cops dont know much about it, or like u said, try to fudge it afterwards to make it a legal search. And your right, it is uniform throughout the nation as it comes from the US Const. Where it makes a diff. state to state is in what is arrestable, since diff. states criminalize diff. things. The arrest, as u know, is dispositive of the issue of SILA. Otherwise, it is all basically uniform throughout the nation. Sorry to hear about your situation. i can sympathsize, as i too get jaded sometimes on our criminal justice system. Hang in there, u seem intelligent, competent, w/ a genuine willingness to help, so im sure good things r just around the corner. if u do decide to continue as a LEO, we need more po po like u.