x
Almost there! Please complete this form and click the button below to gain instant access.
EliteFitness.com FREE Email Series: How You Can Use Winstrol, Masteron, HGH, and Testosterone for a Perfect, Muscular Physique!
- -
We hate SPAM and promise to keep your email address safe.
- -
puritysourcelabsdomestic-supply
napsgeargenezapharmateuticals

Clomid vs Nolvadex used for PCT.


Welcome to the EliteFitness.com Bodybuilding Site! Please join this discussion about Clomid vs Nolvadex used for PCT. within the Anabolic Steroids category.

Excerpt: Buy Clomid for post cycle therapy Which do you prefer? In my case, its Nolvadex. Use clomid or Nolvadex. They do relatively the same thing, but Nolva has less sides, and can be used at half the dosage of clomid. - Nolvadex is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs, as far as the HPTA is concerned. - It does not create the emotional sides that Clomid users experience. Buy Nolvadex - There is a potential rise in SHBG levels with Clomid, which may be cause for concern, as this

Read more or register here to join the discussion below...

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 14
  1. #1
    Super Human Mavy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Proud Canadian!
    Posts
    3,653
    Rep Power
    88

    Clomid vs Nolvadex used for PCT.

    Buy Clomid for post cycle therapy
    Which do you prefer? In my case, its Nolvadex. Use clomid or Nolvadex. They do relatively the same thing, but Nolva has less sides, and can be used at half the dosage of clomid.

    - Nolvadex is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs, as far as the HPTA is concerned.

    - It does not create the emotional sides that Clomid users experience.
    Buy Nolvadex
    - There is a potential rise in SHBG levels with Clomid, which may be cause for concern, as this might work to allow for comparably less free active testosterone compared to Nolvadex.

    - It dosent taste as bad in liqued form as Clomid! lol..
    Buy Clomid
    - Its slightly cheaper when buying the actual pharmaceutical grade tabs.

    I also have no problems running Nolva throughout a cycle, where i wouldnt attempt it with Clomid.
    Last edited by AAP; 17-Dec-2014 at 08:03 PM.

  2. #2
    Super Human Mavy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Proud Canadian!
    Posts
    3,653
    Rep Power
    88

    Re: Clomid vs Nolvadex used for PCT.

    Here is a good read by William Llewellyn, comparing the 2 taken from the mind and muscle web page. Some good points here.




    Clomid, Nolvadex and testosterone Stimulation
    By William Llewellyn


    Editors Note: I am extremely pleased to have Bill Llewellyn contributing an article for us this week. For those who are unaware, he is the author of Anabolics 2000 and Anabolics 2002 and is one of the bodybuilding world's foremost experts on androgens and anabolics. He is also the President of Molecular Nutrition, one of the most innovative companies in this business. Along with Avant Labs and ErgoPharm, Molecular Nutrition is one of the few companies dedicated to putting forth only those products backed by legitimate research, rather than excessive hype and other such B.S. Two products, in particular, that deserve to be more well-known are Viritase, a potent anti-estrogen, and Boldione, a boldenone precursor. To find out more about these, and the rest of their products, I reccomend that you head over to their website -- but only after you have finsished reading big Mf'r and spent all of your money on our products, of course


    Now, on to the article:




    Introduction


    I have received a lot of heat lately about my preference for Nolvadex over Clomid, which I hold for all purposes of use (in the bodybuilding world anyway); as an anti-estrogen, an HDL (good) cholesterol-supporting drug, and as a testosterone-stimulating compound. Most people use Nolvadex to combat gynecomastia over Clomid anyway, so that is an easy sell. And for cholesterol, well, most bodybuilders unfortunately pay little attention to this important issue, so by way of disinterest, another easy opinion to discuss. But when it comes to using Nolvadex for increasing endogenous testosterone release, bodybuilders just do not want to hear it. They only seem to want Clomid. I can only guess that this is based on a long rooted misunderstanding of the actions of the two drugs. In this article I would therefore like to discuss the specifics for these two agents, and explain clearly the usefulness of Nolvadex for the specific purpose of increasing testosterone production.





    Clomid and Nolvadex


    I am not sure how Clomid and Nolvadex became so separated in the minds of bodybuilders. They certainly should not be. Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. This means that in certain tissues they can block the effects of estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the receptor, while in others they can act as actual estrogens, activating the receptor. In men, both of these drugs act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). LH output by the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes. Both drugs do this, but for some reason bodybuilders persist in thinking that Clomid is the only drug good at stimulating testosterone. What you will find with a little investigation however is that not only is Nolvadex useful for the same purpose, it should actually be the preferred agent of the two.

    Studies conducted in the late 1970's at the University of Ghent in Belgium make clear the advantages of using Nolvadex instead of Clomid for increasing testosterone levels (1). Here, researchers looked the effects of Nolvadex and Clomid on the endocrine profiles of normal men, as well as those suffering from low sperm counts (oligospermia). For our purposes, the results of these drugs on hormonally normal men are obviously the most relevant. What was found, just in the early parts of the study, was quite enlightening. Nolvadex, used for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline, which was on par with the effect of 150mg of Clomid daily for the same duration (the testosterone increase was slightly, but not significantly, better for Clomid). We must remember though that this is the effect of three 50mg tablets of Clomid. With the price of both a 50mg Clomid and 20mg Nolvadex typically very similar, we are already seeing a cost vs. results discrepancy forming that strongly favors the Nolvadex side.


    Pituitary Sensitivity to GnRH


    But something more interesting is happening. Researchers were also conducting GnRH stimulation tests before and after various points of treatment with Nolvadex and Clomid, and the two drugs had markedly different results. These tests involved infusing patients with 100mcg of GnRH and measuring the output of pituitary LH in response. The focus of this test is to see how sensitive the pituitary is to Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone. The more sensitive the pituitary, the more LH will be released. The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values. This is contrast to 10 days of treatment with 150mg Clomid, which was shown to consistently DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (more LH was released before treatment). As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels. At this point the same 20mg dosage was also raising testosterone and LH levels to an average of 183% and 172% of base values, respectively, which again is measurably higher than what was noted 10 days into therapy. Within 10 days of treatment Clomid is already exerting an effect that is causing the pituitary to become slightly desensitized to GnRH, while prolonged use of Nolvadex serves only to increase pituitary sensitivity to this hormone. That is not to say Clomid won't increase testosterone if taken for the same 6 week time period. Quite the opposite is true. But we are, however, noticing an advantage in Nolvadex.



    The Estrogen Clomid


    The above discrepancies are likely explained by differences in the estrogenic nature of the two compounds. The researchers' clearly support this theory when commenting in their paper, "The difference in response might be attributable to the weak intrinsic estrogenic effect of Clomid, which in this study manifested itself by an increase in transcortin and testosterone/estradiol-binding globulin [SHBG] levels; this increase was not observed after Tamoxifen treatment". In reviewing other theories later in the paper, such as interference by increased androgen or estrogen levels, they persist in noting that increases in these hormones were similar with both drug treatments, and state that," …a role of the intrinsic estrogenic activity of Clomid which is practically absent in Tamoxifen seems the most probable explanation".

    Although these two are related anti-estrogens, they appear to act very differently at different sites of action. Nolvadex seems to be strongly anti-estrogenic at both the hypothalamus and pituitary, which is in contrast to Clomid, which although a strong anti-estrogen at the hypothalamus, seems to exhibit weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary. To find further support for this we can look at an in-vitro animal study published in the American Journal of Physiology in February 1981 (2). This paper looks at the effects of Clomid and Nolvadex on the GnRH stimulated release of LH from cultured rat pituitary cells. In this paper, it was noted that incubating cells with Clomid had a direct estrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cell sensitivity, exerting a weaker but still significant effect compared to estradiol. Nolvadex on the other hand did not have any significant effect on LH response. Furthermore it mildly blocked the effects of estrogen when both were incubated in the same culture.



    Conclusion


    To summarize the above research succinctly, Nolvadex is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs, at least where the HPTA (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis) is concerned. This fact enables Nolvadex to offer the male bodybuilder certain advantages over Clomid. This is especially true at times when we are looking to restore a balanced HPTA, and would not want to desensitize the pituitary to GnRH. This could perhaps slow recovery to some extent, as the pituitary would require higher amounts of hypothalamic GnRH in the presence of Clomid in order to get the same level of LH stimulation.

    Nolvadex also seems preferred from long-term use, for those who find anti-estrogens effective enough at raising testosterone levels to warrant using as anabolics. Here Nolvadex would seem to provide a better and more stable increase in testosterone levels, and likely will offer a similar or greater effect than Clomid for considerably less money. The potential rise in SHBG levels with Clomid, supported by other research (3), is also cause for concern, as this might work to allow for comparably less free active testosterone compared to Nolvadex as well. Ultimately both drugs are effective anti-estrogens for the prevention of gyno and elevation of endogenous testosterone, however the above research provides enough evidence for me to choose Nolvadex every time.

    In next month's follow-up article I will be discussing the role anti-estrogens play in post-cycle testosterone recovery. Most specifically, I will be detailing what a proper post-cycle ancillary drug program looks like, and explain why anti-estrogens alone are not effective during this window of time.


    References:

    1. Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, Tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men. Vermeulen, Comhaire. Fertil and Steril 29 (1978) 320-7

    2. Disparate effect of Clomiphene and Tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro. Adashi EY, Hsueh AJ, Bambino TH, Yen SS. Am J Physiol 1981 Feb;240(2):E125-30

    3. The effect of Clomiphene citrate on sex hormone binding globulin in normospermic and oligozoospermic men. Adamopoulos, Kapolla et al. Int J Androl 4 (1981) 639-45
    Last edited by AAP; 17-Dec-2014 at 08:04 PM.

  3. #3
    Pro Bodybuilder evander1972's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    aberdeen
    Posts
    689
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: Clomid vs Nolvadex used for PCT.

    Excellent read there, I use Nolva and HCG also. I have done this in all my cycles my last being Sust. I used 4500 ius of HCG split in to 500 mg eod until finnished 1 week before my last shot. Then I ran the Nolva 40 mg for the first week, Then 20 for the second and 3rd. I didnt run it for a 4th week but you could. I kept all my gains from my cycle. I lost a little endurance but no strength.

  4. #4
    Amateur Bodybuilder
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    a stones throw from the firy pit
    Posts
    345
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: Clomid vs Nolvadex used for PCT.

    what are people thoughts with regards to running both for PCT??

  5. #5
    Olympian Nighthawkk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    2,498
    Rep Power
    282

    Re: Clomid vs Nolvadex used for PCT.

    I myself got tired of the debate so I started using both following HCG for my last pct regimen. I had the quickest recovery ever according to my bloodwork

  6. #6
    Amateur Bodybuilder
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    a stones throw from the firy pit
    Posts
    345
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: Clomid vs Nolvadex used for PCT.

    Quote Quote posted by Nighthawkk
    I myself got tired of the debate so I started using both following HCG for my last pct regimen. I had the quickest recovery ever according to my bloodwork
    good to know as i am gonna try em both together for this PCT

  7. #7
    Super Human Mavy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Proud Canadian!
    Posts
    3,653
    Rep Power
    88

    Re: Clomid vs Nolvadex used for PCT.

    I know that a lot of people take a half dose of clomid with a regular dose of Nolva. Like 25mg clomid + 20mg Nolva. I dont see any harm in it, 25mg of clomid may help lower the sides that people complain of.

  8. #8
    Guru
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    6,659
    Rep Power
    80

    Re: Clomid vs Nolvadex used for PCT.


  9. #9
    All Natural
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    16
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: Clomid vs Nolvadex used for PCT.

    How would this work:

    10 mg of Nolvadex during the cycle (Sus/Deca). Then 3 weeks after cycle raising the dose of Nolva as PCT.

    Any help appreciated

  10. #10
    Good Bro
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    84
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: Clomid vs Nolvadex used for PCT.

    Nolva

Similar Threads

  1. nolvadex/clomid help
    By tinytim2bigtim in forum Anabolic Steroids
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 30-Jan-2006, 02:13 PM
  2. How to use Clomid or Nolvadex
    By aaron_everette in forum Anabolic Steroids
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 17-Oct-2005, 04:26 PM
  3. Both Nolvadex and Clomid?
    By terrydean in forum Anabolic Steroids
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 16-Dec-2004, 02:14 AM
  4. clomid/nolvadex
    By flex123 in forum Anabolic Steroids
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 27-Jul-2002, 04:33 PM
  5. Clomid vs Nolvadex
    By BIGRICH in forum Anabolic Steroids
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 09-May-2002, 09:02 AM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •