A||||41||bber2000||***Ms. Olympia, Fitness Results 2000***||||||
Z||000000||bber2000||10-21-2000||12:02 PM||||2000 MS. OLYMPIA<BR>LIGHTWEIGHTS<BR>WINNER: ANDRULLA BLANCHETTE<BR>2) Brenda Raganot<BR>3) Renee Casella<P>HEAVYWEIGHTS<BR>WINNER: VALENTINA CHEPIGA <BR>2) Vickie Gates<BR>3) Lesa Lewis <P>2000 FITNESS OLYMPIA<BR>WINNER: SUSIE CURRY<BR>2) Kelly Ryan<BR>3) Jennifer Worth<BR>4) Timea Majorova<BR>5) Adelina Friedmansky<P>It was pretty much evident that the judges were looking for a much smaller, and leaner champion. They created another weight class for the Ms. Olympia competitors (light Weight). Vickie Gates loss to a much leaner, and less massive Valentina Chepiga. Both of the weight classes were running simultaneously. Just my two .2||209.178.134.182||reg||
Z||000001||Cocktails||10-21-2000||10:16 PM||||Thanks for the info. Was wondering what happened. I'm glad to see some of the  big men, I mean, hmm....  bigger women didn't win. We where just discussing the fact that they had turned themselves into men with women's heads (sort of). Excuse me to all who like the big uns'.||204.60.43.23||reg||
Z||000002||*Ulababe||10-21-2000||11:19 PM||||Thanks I had to go to sleep so I didn't see the final results. ||216.233.172.188||reg||
Z||000003||WonderWoman||10-22-2000||06:44 PM||wonderwoman@thewirehouse.com||Found the Olympia quite interesting. I did love the 'webcast' thang. I thought Andrulla (sp) was fucking huge and ripped. I thought they were gonna pick Brenda Raganot(sp) for the light weight. Her look would have been a lot more consistant with the attempt at 'change'. She and the heavy weight winner would have given a clear message of the direction of women's bodybuilding. As it stands they picked a more 'hardcore' light weight, and a more 'acceptable ' heavyweight. Again I'm confused.<BR>WW||204.131.210.1||reg||
Z||000004||F1hybrid||10-23-2000||05:17 AM||phatboy@columbus.rr.com||I believe the judges use the "Weider Confusion Principle" when judging women's bodybuilding. Been that way for some time now.<P>I say that they should all come in big, hard and ripped. What are they going to do, cancel the show due to a lack of acceptable looking competitors?<P>F1||24.93.121.51||reg||
Z||000005||bikinimom||10-23-2000||09:11 AM||bikinimom@hotmail.com||OK, now let me get this straight:  there are TWO Ms Olympia's? - a light and a heavy?  I didn't see the webcast thing, but from what I've been told BOTH competitors ARE Ms Olympia?......am I the only one who finds this latest "twist" to fubar women's bbing even further?!  As you all know I am partial to lightweights m'self *wink* *wink* but, I always thought the reason for having such an event was to choose THE best.<P>Are the judges saying that it is just TOO difficult to compare the weight classes?  Or is it that they are trying to say that women's bbing has become too much of a freak show and that the masses just don't find such a look aesthetically pleasing?<P>------------------<BR>    <IMG SRC="http://www.elitefitness.com/members/bigrickrock1/pics/friedmom1.gif">  <BR>....beauty knows no pain.||24.4.252.80||reg||
Z||000006||litloak||10-23-2000||12:44 PM||litloak@wildmail.com||F1, LOVE your comments!  Totally agree that they should all come in big and hard.  Hell, that's what it's about!  "Weider Confusion Principle", LMAO!!!||24.247.37.235||reg||
Z||000007||Cocktails||10-23-2000||11:55 PM||||I agree with the ripped and hard part, but why do they have to be "big"? Lisa Lewis, who took 3rd in the heavy weight class, was a JOKE! Damn.... they don't even resemble women any more.<BR>Shouldn't women's BBing still be about women?||204.60.43.169||reg||
Z||000008||madmitch||10-24-2000||04:20 AM||||Cocktails it's sad, but you are correct about Lisa Lewis, she used to be all right looking, but now looking at her face never mind her body, she looks like a drag queen.<P>I have nothing against women using steroids, GH etc, to develop their bodies, but once they start pushing it to the point where their face starts to look like a man's then you know there is something seriously wrong.<P>Some of the really big women are using as much gear as some of the men. On a recent TV program over here, one of the top Amateur men said that he knows women who are using five times more steroids than he is using.<P>However there are others who have managed to maintain their looks Valentina is one and having met Andrulla I would say she has also managed to keep her looks over the years.<P>I really wish there was more openness and honesty in bodybuilding, so that up and coming bodybuilders wouldn't have to make the same mistakes that their predecessors made.<P>||12.2.142.7||reg||
Z||000009||Iron God||10-24-2000||11:35 AM||irongod@hushmail.com||Yeah, the Miss Olympia is turning into a joke...but IFBB judges are sticking to their guns and going for the more feminine-masculine look (whatever the hell that means)...I think to see the future of women’s BBing you need to look to the NPC and the up and coming crop of BB's (Jennifer McVicar) my favorite of the new breed. They a have more feminine lines and are very attractive. The new criteria is a God send for girls like FC who want to compete but  still retain a high degree of femininity and it's what the public wants to.Because without public support the new venue for the 2001 Miss O will be my backyard...<P>This goes out to all you Lesa Lewis lovers out there<BR>  <IMG SRC="http://www.elitefitness.com/members/irongod/Lesa.jpg"> <p>[This message has been edited by Iron God (edited October 24, 2000).]||192.127.94.7||reg||
Z||000010||dirkpitt51||10-24-2000||03:02 PM||||I was at the Expo and got to meet Valentina. She wasn't super huge like some of the other women. She reminded me of a cartoon superhero women from the X-men or something. I thought she looked great. She was sitting at one of the booths, nice and relaxed and her veins were showing in her arms. I'd still prefer to date the fitness women, but I think she has the best physique out there out of all the bodybuilding women I saw. I also got a picture with amatuer Susanne Niederhauser (look for her in Flex-n-Femme) and I wanted to take her home with me.||209.24.2.66||reg||
Z||000011||F1hybrid||10-24-2000||03:58 PM||phatboy@columbus.rr.com||All right Cocktails, you pushed my buttons. Lisa Lewis is 5'10". How the fuck is she supposed to look petite? Why do they have to be big you say?  Maybe she should have her legs shortened so she's 5'4" and weighs in at 140 instead of 171 (Olympia) or 190 (Arnold). Perhaps any women taller than 5'5" shouldn't compete? Or someone 5'10" should weigh 140 and look like an anorectic? Shit…….<P>As far as looking like a "drag queen" (MadMitch), Lisa is anything but that. She participated in a body composition study I was conducting and my colleague who helped is as anti-female muscle as they come, thinks women BBs are freaks, but found Lisa very attractive. That even surprised me considering he likes his women skinny, soft and traditionally feminine.  <P>Lisa has also spoken in some of my classes on bodybuilding. A number of students commented on how "attractive" she is. Many felt that (from pictures) most women bodybuilders looked grotesque. This comes from a group of average college students. I think they'd be the first to come up with the drag queen comments. I can also say that Lisa's skin is the best I've seen on any female BB or fitness competitor, hardly that of an old alligator that so many BBs and fitness girl's sport. Its as soft and smooth as a baby's ass. Sorry I can't agree on the drag queen issue.<P>Perhaps the next Ms Olympia should look like this. Don't know if the graphic will work.<P> <IMG SRC="http://d:model1.jpg"> <P>F1<P><BR>||24.93.121.51||reg||
Z||000012||bikinimom||10-24-2000||04:39 PM||bikinimom@hotmail.com||Do I sense a bit of controversey brewing here?<P>------------------<BR>    <IMG SRC="http://www.elitefitness.com/members/bigrickrock1/pics/friedmom1.gif">  <BR>....beauty knows no pain.||24.4.252.80||reg||
Z||000013||Kaizen||10-24-2000||05:45 PM||ka1zen@hushmail.com||Bikini Mom --<P>I think you do smell some serious controversy.... Hell the pro scene isn't based on who's got the  most muscle with the least gear...I still stick with my good for the goose good for the gander position...that or maybe we should feminize the men!  All that gear should be estrogen based and then we could have co-ed competition based on the new feminine-muscular image..... It's the same old thing... women need to fit a "type" mold and the boys can do whatever they want....<P>------------------<BR>Kaizen<P>Omnia Praeclara<BR>tam difficilia<BR>Quam rara sunt<P>Follow the path of the unsafe, independent thinker. Expose your ideas to danger of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crack pot' than the stigma of conformity." - Thomas J. Watson||204.89.159.101||reg||
Z||000014||Cocktails||10-25-2000||12:52 AM||||F1,<BR>Sorry to offend you. My comment was not directed at height, but more to the fact that I do think the gear use is out of hand. You, probubly more than anyone, realize what a women has to suffer, as far as side effects go, to put on that much muscle mass.<BR>If a single cc of Primo a week, can cause acne, enlarged clit, hair loss, loss of libido, etc. I can only imagine what those amounts of drugs are doing.<BR>I do have to say, my skin improved and I would have to say it did feel "like a baby's ass", but the sides aren't worth it.<BR>I just like a women to look like MS or Fitness Chick, not like Flex!||204.60.28.145||reg||
Z||000015||madmitch||10-25-2000||04:24 AM||||Sorry F1hybrid, but Iron God's picture says it all. Look how f**king square her jaw and chin are.<P>I suggest you read the bit on Testosterone in The 1996 World Anabolic Review, in which they suggest the maximum testosterone a woman should take is 250 mg per week, however most of the Top heavy weight women are injecting much higher doses in a shorter time period. I have been told that many are using or should I say abusing by taking 1000's of mg's per week. Some have even used the biggy - Anadrol 50. <P>I was also told about one Top Amateur woman who was injecting 3 different steroids every f**king day by the time she was 18 years old. Yes she got big and strong really fast, but in about 2 years she went from being a real stunner to having a face like a bulldog.<P>This is what pisses me off about the secrecy in bodybuilding. With proper advice that girl could have got to the same level of developement using a lot less steroids and still maintained her looks. Ok it might have taken her a few more years, but at least she wouldn't have destroyed her looks.<P>F1 - I am not against women getting really big. If they want 20" arms that's fine by me. But at least they should try and do it in a way that is not going to screw their face up permanently. ||12.2.142.7||reg||
Z||000016||litloak||10-25-2000||08:37 AM||litloak@wildmail.com||Oohhhhh, so it's a face issue?  Well, I'll keep my face but I'd really like to have Lewis' quads!  And those bi's!  Through in the abs for me, too, eh?   <IMG SRC="http://www.elitefitness.com/ubb/wink.gif">||24.247.38.82||reg||
Z||000017||F1hybrid||10-25-2000||11:39 AM||phatboy@columbus.rr.com||That's exactly my point MadMitch, "Iron God's picture say's it all". It's the picture, not the person. Get up close to Lisa (less than a foot away, if she'll let you get that close) and then pass judgement, especially when she is not contest ready.<P>What you see on contest photos is a body fat of about 4.5%, dehydrated and under harsh overhead lighting. <P>Ladies (and guys for that matter), how many of you have gotten down to 4.5% body fat? Ladies, trust me, even if you are clean, get down to 4.5%, dehydrate for a couple of days, then take a look in a mirror with strong overhead lighting. Guess what, your jaw will be square and cheek bones quite prominent. Why, no bodyfat coupled with no s.c. water. Now, you also have to remember that the face and jaw area is full of muscle. Any muscle that is overloaded grows. Even if you aren't juicing, clenching your teeth during heavy lifts will cause the musculature in your jaw to hypertrophy. Like any muscle, take away the fat and it looks more defined. Get my point?<P>A female trainer I once knew who was an anorectic maintained a year-round body fat of 4.3% (assessed by skinfolds, DEXA and hydrostatic weighting). Her face was as gnarly as gnarly comes. Her skin looked like it was stretched across her skull. Square jaw and prominent cheeks, never juiced in her life.<P>Currently, a fitness competitor trains at our gym. I just comp's her at 8%. She is getting the same look in her face as she leans out.<P>Regarding permanent changes. If juicing permanently changed the jaw, then why does Kim look so much better now (at least in the face). More fat, less muscle.<P>There are many confounding variables that influence looks in addition to androgens.<P>Bottom-line, being around numerous women bodybuilders and fitness competitors, if I were single, I'd take a date with Lisa over any fitness competitor. She's one classy lady and her class goes well beyond her looks.<P>F1<BR>||24.93.121.51||reg||
Z||000018||JayeLynn||10-25-2000||12:40 PM||greyvulf@hotmail.com||live and let live: I love 'em all!  My only hope is that they have achieved the body that fits their own image of perfection: an unique and personnal expression of  beauty.  If any one of them has persued someone else's image of beauty, then the juice is far from the problem.<P>------------------<BR>There is no measure to the benefits of patience and humility  ... damn my patience is running thin.||129.80.22.140||reg||
Z||000019||bikinimom||10-25-2000||01:53 PM||bikinimom@hotmail.com||Kaizen - Sista Girl...You crack me up!!!!  Let's here it for the feminizing of male body builders!  tee-hee<P>F1 - you bring out some EXTREMELY good points.  People do not look the same at 14% as they do at 4%.  Even the men are fucking ugly when they are about to step out onto stage for a competition.  You can't have the body dehydrated, muscles bulging ripped to shreds w/o it effecting the aesthetics of the face.  How many of you have been told just before a competition by people in the gym, people who see you on a nearly-daily basis, "You look sick!"?  It is because you do!.....and I've never been below 8% myself.  I shudder to think how frugly (that is FREAKING UGLY) I would be at 4% or below!<P>The fact of the matter is that no matter how big and developed a woman's muscles become, whether we PERSONALLY find this look aethetically pleasing or visually appealing or not - as body builders or fitness enthusiast, at the very least, we should be able to acknowledge their remarkable accomplishments w/o degrading them by making comments like, "She looks like a guy."<P>I myself have been guilty of this in the past.  Whether this was out of a sense of insecurity - wanting to distance myself from what is considered by MOST to be beyond "fringe" or "freaky" or ignorance and misinformation or perhaps a combination of all of these elements, REGARDLESS - If we, within the body building community can not at least acknowledge and accept the achievements of our own without degrading our sisters, how then can we expect those within the "mainstream" or "average" community to begin to open their eyes to the true beauty that is STRENGTH and SIZE?!<P>OK....I'll get off the soapbox now.<P>------------------<BR>    <IMG SRC="http://www.elitefitness.com/members/bigrickrock1/pics/friedmom1.gif">  <BR>....beauty knows no pain.||24.4.252.80||reg||
Z||000020||litloak||10-25-2000||04:38 PM||litloak@wildmail.com||Well said, Bmom.  Also, I totally agree with your point, F1.  I was in a GNC-type store one day and saw a lady in there who obviously had an eating disorder (or should I say a NON-eating disorder) and her bones jutted out from every which way.  I hate to stare at people because I believe in "Do unto others..." but I couldn't tear my eyes away from that sight.  It was like looking at a walking skeleton.  I guess some fat is indeed a good thing.||24.247.37.235||reg||
Z||000021||Cocktails||10-26-2000||01:53 AM||||BMom,<BR>PLEASSSSE! Can't anyone have an opinion that's different from yours?<BR>"The fact of the matter is that no matter how big and developed a woman's muscles become, whether we PERSONALLY find this look aethetically pleasing or visually appealing or not - as body builders or fitness enthusiast, at the very least, we should be able to acknowledge their remarkable accomplishments w/o degrading them by making comments like, "She looks like a guy."<BR> Get real! These "women", (and I truly do not believe that chemically they are women any longer,) do look like men, as they have changed their chemistry with male hormones. This is done all the time in the trans-sexual community, men to women, with female hormones. You wouldn't want to tell one of those "gals" that they look like men, because they don't anymore. Remarkable accomplishments? Maybe... or maybe a huge mistake... like an experiment gone wrong.<BR>Would we accept it if it were the other way around? Men looking like women? I don't think so!<BR>"- If we, within the body building community can not at least acknowledge and accept the achievements of our own without degrading our sisters, how then can we expect those within the "mainstream" or "average" community to begin to open their eyes to the true beauty that is STRENGTH and SIZE?!"<BR>Degrading our sisters? I think not. Keeping things in balance, instead of becoming a freak show is really the true measure of a lover of the sport. If we want credability, we have to be credable. Strength is beautiful. Size is beautiful. All in the proper moderation. Let's continue to keep the two sexes separate. It's real nice that way!<P><BR>------------------<BR>||204.60.43.225||reg||
Z||000022||F1hybrid||10-26-2000||05:18 AM||phatboy@columbus.rr.com||Cocktails:<P>Like it or not, when women enter sports that demand size and hardness, something they were not meant to have (to a point), you will have performance enhancing drug use. Look at the fitness women today, they are harder and more muscular than the women BBs at the National Level back in the mid-80's, and they were juicing then. There's no going back at this point.||24.93.121.51||reg||
Z||000023||Iron God||10-26-2000||10:33 AM||irongod@hushmail.com||The problem is you really have to see these women in person alot of times photos do them no justice. They are not lumbering hulks of muscle but actually  small (by male standards anyway)just very defined and in clothes thay look just like most people who are in shape...plus all the dehydration and fat loss gives their faces and drawn sharp look that some people assume is masculinization<P>IG||192.127.94.7||reg||
Z||000024||new@gettinbig||10-26-2000||05:43 PM||j1fit1@hotmail.com||Personally I think it is all a matter of opinion.  In my opinion I do not think Lesa Lewis looks like a freak in any way.  I think most whom take this opinon are insecure and a little jealous of these women and their size.  A woman looks totally different when she is dieting and has low bodyfat and that holds true for a average person as well.  Seeing someone in person is totally different.  If you understand bodybuilding and all that goes into it, then you would appreciate these women and their size.  Look at some of the fitness women's faces in photos, they have the same look!  Its all in the eye of the beholder!||205.188.195.190||reg||
Z||000025||bikinimom||10-26-2000||06:09 PM||bikinimom@hotmail.com||OUCH!<P>------------------<BR>    <IMG SRC="http://www.elitefitness.com/members/bigrickrock1/pics/friedmom1.gif">  <BR>....beauty knows no pain.||24.4.252.80||reg||
Z||000026||WarLobo||10-30-2000||03:56 PM||warlobo@operamail.com||Well, I'm late to the dance on this thread.  Damn.... I had a BIG spoon ready to stir with too!<P>It is, of course, the endless debate on the "mass" of women’s BBing - and fitness for that matter.  Here are a few bones to chew on:<P>I've said before that I don't mind the big ladies, and what they have to take to get that way.  What I AM hoping for, is to see some progress in the judging style that will reduce the use of diuretics. Maybe they should set a min level of BF, say 8% to compete.  <P>I like the idea of two classes.  Now I have a choice, go out with a woman I can spin. Or go out with a woman who can spin me!!!!    <P>For some strange reason women BBers have to be good looking in the face.  This is the only sport I know of that being "butt ugly" will keep you from excelling.  This seemingly dose not apply to the men - MUCH.<P>Using test DOES NOT MAKE YOU JAW GROW.<P>"Weider Confusion Principle"  LOL!  Hey, it's going to take some time for the judges to come around.  Not all the old times like the changes.<P>Symmetry, Symmetry Symmetry, why as this been forgotten?!?!?  Bigger is NOT always better.<P>Two weeks after a comp, most women BBers look VERY good.<P>It is the very nature of humans to push the envelope.  To see how big, how cut, and how strong one can get. <P> <P>------------------<BR>LAte<P>Lobo||199.211.225.194||reg||
Z||000027||madmitch||10-31-2000||05:03 AM||||Look Lisa Lewis could be the nicest person in the world, but I personally think that even from her pictures you can tell that her face has changed in the last 2 or 3 years. I admit she used to be pretty good looking. <P>I'm sorry, but if you have ever seen some of these women close up you can see that most of them shave their faces and have a deep raspy voice. You can even see the stubble in some of their contest photo's, just look for the two different shades in their faces. I'm not trying to be nasty I'm just being realistic and this more than anything is probably what the judges don't like seeing ie. a woman with a six o'clock shadow.<P>However I have met some pro women who are pretty big and have not got the stubble or raspy voice and are still really good looking, why? Genetics!!! or is it because they have been more careful not to use the heavy androgens like Anadrol 50 and long acting testosterones etc.<P>Warlobo I'm not so sure about Testosterone, even Arnold blamed his protruding jaw on steroids. Growth Hormone is even more responsible for the square jaw, as everyone knows GH can induce bone growth.<P>Anyway maybe I have explained why the judges don't really like the over muscular women. It's not because of their size or definition but more down to the fact that their faces have become more like mens with square jaws and stubble along with the deep voices.<P><BR>  ||12.2.142.7||reg||
Z||000028||Kaizen||10-31-2000||02:44 PM||ka1zen@hushmail.com||Whooooeeeee!!!  This has been quite a ride!  The fact of the matter is men get bitch tits(granted if they're stupid) lose their ability to produce sperm their hair falls out but it's okay because they are trying to get big and ripped...But teh opposite effects on women are eeeew gross.... okay in my sleasiest tijauna salesman accent....eeees theeessse reeeealy the issue?!?!?  I think it comes down yet again to a comcept of male and female power big women are a threat to little men....It shouldn't matter.  C'mon 20 years ago body builders shaving their chests had people talking about how they must be "fags"...MEN have body hair... WOMEN aren't that muscular...they shouldn't have body hair either..c'mon it's all about preconcieved notions and taboos...In two months we really kick into teh new millenium..let's do it with  an eye to moving forward in terms of gender role perceptions!||204.89.159.101||reg||
Z||000029||Iron God||10-31-2000||03:11 PM||irongod@hushmail.com||Gender Role Perceptions...I like that<P>As good as some of the pionts some of you have. Bottom line is huge muscular women are not natures norm,so I don't think the majority of people will ever except it or understand it.<P>So you think us men should all act more like male Sea Horses.  <IMG SRC="http://www.elitefitness.com/ubb/wink.gif">||192.127.94.7||reg||
Z||000030||WarLobo||10-31-2000||06:47 PM||warlobo@operamail.com||Can someone PLEASE show me any proof that testo makes your jaw grow!<P>Additionally, I think what we are seeing is a matter of genetic pooling.  Look, certain physical traits always gravitate to certain sports.  Basketball players TEND to have long legs. Baseball players TEND to have very good eyesight.  Football players TEND to be stupid... hehehe  <IMG SRC="http://www.elitefitness.com/ubb/tongue.gif">   Anyways, you get my point.  Maybe what we’re seeing are skeletal tendencies that support additional/superior muscle mass - and one of the byproducts of this skeletal tendency is a more square jaw line.  I bet we would also see a more dense skeletal structure in all respects – regardless, or before, gear usage.  I also believe we would see a very striking similarity in skeletal proportions if we took the time to measure.  That is to say, the ratio of thigh bone length to hip, and forearms to that biceps bone that I can’t fricking remember the name of. <P>Then we dehydrate the body, which accents this law line, and wham…. A stereotype is born.<BR><P>------------------<BR>LAte<P>Lobo||199.211.225.194||reg||
Z||000031||madmitch||11-01-2000||04:34 AM||||Well Warlobo Growth Hormone may be more responsible for the square jaws, as I said before GH can induce bone growth. <P>You have heard of the condition Acromegaly or Gigantism where a normal persons Pituitary gland can suddenly start producing large quantities of growth hormone. These people tend to have distended jaws and large feet and hands. When a bodybuilder starts injecting large quantities of GH they are basically inducing the same effect of Acromegaly.<P>Look at some of these womens hands the next time you meet them. I used to think that their hands were just big because of all the heavy lifting!!!!<P>GH unlike steroids can actually INCREASE the number of muscle fibres in your body. Therefore even if you have crap genetics with not many muscle fibres, GH can level the playing field so to speak. <P>I'm sure you have heard it said before in some of the magazines etc. bodybuilders from the 50's - 60's saying that all the guy's today look the same. Why? I believe it is because of GH. This is also why the Pro's competition stacks have become so expensive.<P>Ok before all you Guy's and Girls start running to your local dealer to get your hands on GH, one other thing I should point out about Acromegaly (gigantism): Most of the people who get this condition have their mortality rate due to cardiovascular problems increase from 36 - 62% after the age of 45. Makes you wonder how many of these Olympians today are going to reach 50 with out having major heart problems?||12.2.142.7||reg||
Z||000032||F1hybrid||11-01-2000||06:10 AM||phatboy@columbus.rr.com||Will someone please show me the data that GH actually works? Maybe as a cutting agent, but I can find shit that shows it really builds muscle, either hypertrophy or hyperplasia. Citations (in humans) please. <P>Regarding hands. They grow just like any other body part exposed to mechanical stress (both muscle and bone).<P>F1||24.93.121.51||reg||
Z||000033||madmitch||11-01-2000||07:02 AM||||F1hybrid just ask any top pro bodybuilder what drug they spend most of their money on? and then ask them why? If they are honest they will tell you it's GH and as for why well because it works. <P>I remember reading an interview about a top pro who said that Growth Hormone is great. He said that he gained 20 lb's of muscle using growth and that was while he was dieting for a show.<P>F1 explain that one to me.||12.2.142.7||reg||
Z||000034||F1hybrid||11-01-2000||09:59 AM||phatboy@columbus.rr.com||I asked a top pro about GH two years ago. His statement was, "I'll take a good cycle of Deca over GH anytime; far less expensive and far more effective for building size".<P>I know what the top pros say, but there is just nothing in the literature or anecdotally to support the results they say they achieve. Besides, how can you tell if the GH is doing shit when you're combining it with 10g of Test a week and shit load of other AAS. Personally, I don't think these guys have a clue what does anything. I'd bet that if most dropped the GH with everything else their taking, it wouldn't make any difference.<P>The pro I talked to told me that the guys take shit just because they are afraid that they won't have the same edge as the others, not because they are convinced or have any proof that what they are taking actually helps them.<P>F1||24.93.121.51||reg||
Z||000036||MS||11-01-2000||03:08 PM||mad.scientist55@hushmail.com||I've been a bit too busy to get started on this topic before now.  But It's been an interesting thread to follow.  My thoughts are many, and I won't bore you with all of them!<P>First of all, I am appaulled by the double standard that still exsisits between men's and women's BB.  How can anyone (IronGod) think that someone like Dorian Yates looks like something nature intended, but Andrulla doesn't?  All the pros look like freaks who have used too much gear.  To say it is obvious that the women have used AS is to imply that it's not obvious that the men have.  How silly.  <P>Testosterone does not diectly make the jaw bone grow, though Test does lead to an increase in natural GH production.  Suffice it to say that science has not yet determined what kind of GH effect SUPER-physiological doses of test might have.  But what most of you are seeing in the women (AND men) is an increase in the size of the jaw MUSCLES, which usually goes away when he BB stops taking lots of gear.  That and the previously mentioned low %bf and dehydration.<P>I also feel that GH is used by pro BBs out of fear of getting left behind, NOT because they have proven to themselves that it works.  Many pros will admit that they feel it's the insulin used with GH that has really made a difference in mass in the last few years.  The poorer pros (and many amatuers) use insulin with AS, and no GH and make equally good gains.  But as a cutting drug, GH is still a good addition.<P>I have not seen a Miss O since Cory E that did any justice to the sport in my opinion. Maybe Linda in her early years. I think all the top pro women look ugly and masculine and would not swap places with them for any money.  BUT, like BMOM, I support them if that's what they want to do to their bodies.  But I'm not so sure that the modern female BB physique isn't the result of a decade of bad judging.  It will take time for the judging bodies to turn this around (if that's what they intend).  But the women have gotten bigger every year because each preceding year the judges have selected the biggest female with little regard for whether they looked "like women" or not.  That's OK, because I don't believe that the men OR women should be marked down for being butt-ugly.  We have different contests for facial beauty and femininity.  <P>Finally, I feel that if the judges go any 'lighter' in their judging, there will become little difference between the physique and fitness classes.  I would be quite happy if pro BBs had to wear a brown paper bag on their heads, just to remind everyone that it's the muscles we're supposed to be looking at.||139.80.64.4||reg||
Z||000037||Iron God||11-01-2000||03:39 PM||irongod@hushmail.com||MS,<P>No natured never intended Dorian Yates. Science just amplified his "MALE" characteristics further. I'm 100% for male and female body building and bigger and leaner is ALWAYS better.I like to sometime veiw thing from another perspective.<P>I mean lets face these are MALE hormones these women are injecting into themselves.<P>Could you imagine if soft and flabby were the ideal.. Men would all be lining up for our estro shots and having our testicles removed.<P><BR>IG||192.127.94.7||reg||
Z||000038||MS||11-01-2000||04:02 PM||mad.scientist55@hushmail.com||I beg to differ with you on the issue of Test being a MALE hormone.  Bullshit.  So your average adult male has 10x more test than your average adult female.  Many females have 2x the 'normal' amount of test, some men have much less than the 'normal' amount for a male.  So there could be as little as 3-fold difference between a female and male's test but they could both be in the 'normal' range for their sex.  Test is no more a male hormone than estrogen is a female hormone. Both sexes need both in the right amounts to physically be female or male. So a pro male bodybuilder increases his test level 20-fold above his 'normal' level with AS use.  If a woman increase her test by 20-fold above her normal level using the same means, she if frowned upon.  THAT'S a double standard.  They are both manipulating their naturally occurring hormones in the same way.<P>And most men would not need estrogen therapy if soft and flabby ever came into vogue.  Merely maintaining a high level of bodyfat will ensure that they produce enough of their own estrogen to achieve this new ideal bodytype.  The converse of that is women who achieve very low levels of bodyfat.  Their estrogen levels drop so low that they appear androgenous.  This doesn't require them to take AS.  Just look at your average anorexic and you'll see what I mean.  Male and female is now considered a spectrum, with hermaphrodites in the middle of the spectrum, by modern thinking medical professionals.<P>But it is all really irrelevant to the Weider confusion principle.  The BB federations MUST sort out a clear cut judging criteria that doesn't involve fuzzy concepts like "muscle mass but retaining femininity" or "healthy skin and attention to makeup".  WTF???  How do you know what their skin is like if you require them to cover it in makeup?  Do the men have a requirement for attention to makeup??  So if you've got pockmarks from youth, you have to have them planed off if you want to do well in female BB?  ||139.80.64.4||reg||
Z||000039||Cocktails||11-02-2000||01:02 AM||||MS<BR>All I can say is Thanks, and Thanks again!<BR>"I have not seen a Miss O since Cory E that did any justice to the sport in my opinion.<BR>Maybe Linda in her early years. I think all the top pro women look ugly and masculine and<BR>would not swap places with them for any money."<BR>I don't have a clue where the sport is going... but I sure don't like the direction it has taken.<BR>Give me Cory, Rachel, Lenda, MS, FitnessChick...Now them be some good lookin' women!||204.60.28.62||reg||
Z||000040||madmitch||11-02-2000||04:05 AM||||MS - I have to correct you on some points. Firstly you said that the average adult male has 10 x the amount of natural testosterone that an adult female has. That is correct.<P>However you also said that "so a pro male bodybuilder increases his test levels 20 -fold above normal levels with AS use. If a woman increases her test by 20 - fold above normal she is frowned upon. That is a DOUBLE standard. <P>This is where I have to dissagree with you. Firstly most pro women started taking steroids with advice from a boy friend or a male personal trainer. This is why a lot of these women got so big so f**king fast, because they basically where advised to use the same things that the men were using.<P>Now as I said in one of my posts above, a top Amatuer male on a tv program over here said that he knows women who are using 5 times the amount of steroids he is using. The guy is Australian and I can Guess who he is talking about. But the fact is that a lot of the pro women today are using just as much steroids as the men. <P>A former top Amateur female bodybuilder told me that she has no doubt that the pro women today are using well over 1000 mg of testosterone per week. <P>Therefore when you say these men are increasing their test levels by 20 - fold a lot of these women who are using just as much steroids as the men are actually increasing their natural test levels by 200 - fold.<P>I rest my case.  ||12.2.142.7||reg||
Z||000041||F1hybrid||11-02-2000||05:06 AM||phatboy@columbus.rr.com||1000 mg/wk, that's par for fitness women. There was an article in Oxygen Mag about a year ago that outlined the cycle of a pro fitness competitor. She detailed her cycle. After doing the math, it worked out to about 2000 mg total per week of Primo, Oxandrolone and Winny plus some clen. There's food for thought.<P>F1||24.93.121.51||reg||
Z||000042||madmitch||11-02-2000||06:32 AM||||F1 - I could well believe that some of the fitness women are using high doses of steroids, but look at the difference. <P>The Fitness women are using mostly Winy, Primo and Anavar which even in high quantities are not nearly as androgenic as Test, Anadrol 50, Parabolan Dianabol etc.<P>Testosterone has an anabolic to androgenic ratio of 100/100.<P>Primobolan has a ratio of 500/20 which means that it is 5 times more anabolic yet it is also 5 times less androgenic than Test. <P>Therefore if a woman pro was taking 1000 mg of Test per week then a fitness woman would need to take 5000 mg of Primobolan per week before she would have the same androgen levels as the pro female bodybuilder.<P>||12.2.142.7||reg||