A||||53||Iron God||Who is taking what?||||||
Z||000000||Iron God||07-13-2000||10:50 AM||irongod@hushmail.com||As far as supplements and other than gear did you find that any of them work?<P>------------------<BR><I>Nam Et Ipsa Scientia Potestas Est!</I><P>||192.127.94.7||reg||
Z||000001||BigPappa||07-13-2000||10:53 AM||||Unfortunately, how can one know if a product is working considering very rarely only one is being taken?<P>Let say, you were "off".  Any you were taking Cell-Tech, myoplex, andro, Ribose, and ECA.  How can you say one is working? Sort of when you stack gear and you are trying to determine if both are working, how can you REALLY know if one is alone or all items.  No way to legitimately single an item out of a mix.  And very few take only ONE supplementation. At least MRP/whey and ECA is used a lot together.||204.255.124.5||reg||
Z||000002||Iron God||07-13-2000||11:07 AM||irongod@hushmail.com||Let's exclude meal replacements and other food supplements,I mean active supplements like andro and the like.<P>------------------<BR><I>Nam Et Ipsa Scientia Potestas Est!</I><P>||192.127.94.7||reg||
Z||000003||WarLobo||07-13-2000||11:23 AM||warlobo@operamail.com||Ok, I tried:<P>Moose piss, cat pud, sheep dung, and orrangitang tit,<BR>Camel crap, pig nuts, cow guts, mixed with elephant clit.<P>Chicken beak, money feet, snake skin, with raccoon eyes,<BR>Ferret brains, whale sperm, octopuses ink, blended into home fries.<P>Rhino beetles, earth worms, fire ants and mandrake root,<BR>Cactus pulp, shark fin, horse cud, baked with a splash of regular scented Brut.<P>So as you can see I’ve tried most everything out there and the only thing I’ve found over the many years that works is some sort of test….<P>Late<P>Lobo<P><BR>||199.211.225.194||reg||
Z||000004||BigPappa||07-13-2000||11:29 AM||||My monthly summer GNC bills alone are over $300 and that's on gold card day.  What is working of all that shit I bring home? Who f'in knows!  I'm a sucker for believing "just in case".  Mainly protein and safety stuff like Milk T, cranberry, primrose, echinacea, multi-vitamins, and whole bunch of other "leading-edge" shit I won't bore you with.  <P>As for what is working in that mix?...like I said, no way I can ever tell.  I do know that the test. is working though. Or wait, maybe its the andro?...or the phosphagen HP, or the nitro-tech?.  Oh the hell with it, as long as I'm making gains and staying lean.<BR>||204.255.124.5||reg||
Z||000005||dirtyratt||07-13-2000||11:44 AM||twodirtyrats@hotmail.com||don't buy anything from GNC.  go to nathigh.com and get all your sups.  i went on the site and saved at least 40% on the exact same things i have always bought at GNC, i too am a gold member.  not trying to plug the site, but if it saves me money, i want to pass on my knowledge to others.  $100+ free shipping <IMG SRC="http://www.elitefitness.com/ubb/smile.gif">  <BR>as for me, i am sure you all know, primo.  i like ripped fuel for a xtra kick, but it has begun to make me sick.  nitro tech protein powder, but looking for something else b/c it tastes kinda ronch.  any suggestions?  clen is the bomb, but the shakes are a little too much for me to deal with.<P>    dirtyratt||64.38.43.33||reg||
Z||000006||BigPappa||07-13-2000||12:08 PM||||actually, I take home over $300 worth of stuff but pay about half of that since my GNC is corrupt!  <P>||204.255.124.5||reg||
Z||000007||JayeLynn||07-13-2000||12:14 PM||greyvulf@hotmail.com||Let's see if I can make a positive contribution.  I like Adipokinetix and think that it is a good combination with Body Opus for me.  I think Xenadrine is a waste of money.  It appears that Vanadyl sulfate works well as an insuline substitute/simulator as it seemed to have helped me slide into ketosis quickly and gracefully.  I think Yohimbe works, but need more time with it as I had some unpleasant sides but saw increases in the cuts in my legs over the ~week that I took it at higher doses.  I'm very disenchanted with EAS products in general as they tend to have a lot of crap that you don't need.  I believe in vitamin C and magnesium.<P>------------------<BR>Feel Free to Underestimate me <BR>||129.80.22.140||reg||
Z||000008||skydancer||07-13-2000||12:45 PM||skydancer43@hotmail.com||I tried Ripped Fuel for several weeks (first fat burner I've ever tried) but I can't tell you what it actually did for me (besides give me a buzz) because I was working hard and cleaned up my diet.  More recently I started Adipo (like Jayelynn) and do like the results of that (particularly in the lower body) but again, whose to say if its the hard work/diet or the combo.<P>JL - can you give me more detail on the Vit C/magnesium?  I haven't been taking any multi's because I can't find one w/out iodine (makes me break out like you wouldn't believe).  And despite my diet being really clean, I can't help but think I need more vit/min support.  Thanks!<BR><P>------------------<BR>One must suffer to be beautiful - French Proverb||216.244.30.231||reg||
Z||000009||JayeLynn||07-13-2000||01:12 PM||greyvulf@hotmail.com||Okay sky.<BR>I use vitamin C for two things: 1. protein systhesis 2. water retension<BR>When I'm lifing heavy, my body can tolerate up to 7000-10000mg per day.  Since is also a good diuretic, I also use it when my body starts bloating for extended periods of time.<BR>Too, I leave it out of the mix when I'm dehydrated.<BR>Magnesium is fundamental in nerve health and I use it to proactively address cramping.  You definately need to supplement with vitamins and minerals.  If you cannot find the ideal pill in a multiple, then I highly recommend that you piece it all together.<P>------------------<BR>Feel Free to Underestimate me <BR>||129.80.22.140||reg||
Z||000010||skydancer||07-13-2000||01:35 PM||skydancer43@hotmail.com||Ug - I've read WL post on vit/min and I know I need too but GEEZ is that not cost effective...can you (or anyone) maybe give me say the top 3-5 vit min....I can always piece together the vit and do like a colloidal min supplement too.<P>Thanks for the help! I'd also like to know why the adipo makes my hands cold/clammy?   <P>Off topic IG - sorry.<p>[This message has been edited by skydancer (edited July 13, 2000).]||216.244.31.75||reg||
Z||000011||JayeLynn||07-13-2000||01:46 PM||greyvulf@hotmail.com||okay girl, you have got to get yourself over this hump.  Put in the time and go to the store.  Read the bottles and put together a regimine based upon the information that you have now.  If you read WL's post correctly, this is a minimum based upon his experience/knowledge.  Don't forget, a big part of this is balance.  None of us can tell you what your deficiencies are with respect to body chemestry.<P>------------------<BR>Feel Free to Underestimate me <BR>||129.80.22.140||reg||
Z||000012||WarLobo||07-13-2000||01:48 PM||warlobo@operamail.com||Ok Sky, I'm going to put something together for you and it WILL be cost effective.  Maybe not at the start, but over the long haul it will ok.  I'll even tell you were to go buy them.  But lets face it, you don't have any options and you need to have some sort of supplementation<P>This is a one time deal ladies, NOT going to do this for everyone.  Takes a long time and I usually charge big bucks.<P>Sky, need your body weight and BF - be a accurate as you can.  Number of hours you lift during the week and cardio.  Also what your current diet is - basic food groups is fine.  How many hours on average you sleep per night. And your job level of activity, i.e. do you sit in a chair all day, do you drive a fork lift, or walk around in a wear house.<P>LAte<P>Lobo   ||199.211.225.194||reg||
Z||000013||skydancer||07-13-2000||02:03 PM||skydancer43@hotmail.com||WL - LOVE YA BIG GUY!!!  I just went and re read your vit/min post and I'm like SHIT where do I start!!!<P>Okay - 5'6", 140lbs, bf 17-18% (and dropping), lift 1hr 4Xwk, cardio 45-60m 2xwk, work: sit on MY REAR and play on the 'puter all day, sleep 7-8hrs, diet: pro 200g, carb 150, fat 50 - about 1700-1900 depending on what I actually take in. (I should add I am a natural food/whole food person - lots of veggies, whole grains, usually only one serving of fruit a day though lots and lots of water)<P>Need anything else?<P>------------------<BR><I>One must suffer to be beautiful - French Proverb </I><BR><p>[This message has been edited by skydancer (edited July 13, 2000).]||216.244.31.75||reg||
Z||000014||JayeLynn||07-13-2000||03:33 PM||greyvulf@hotmail.com||FOUL!!!!<BR>FOUL!!!<P>Are you also going to explain in full detail your algorythm and fundamental premises upon which you're coming up with this magical combination?  How's a girl supposed to learn, you enabler!<P>No offense sky, but I would have much rather seen you come back with inquiries about the ratios you were able to put together or something on that level.  In fact, I think that muscle and fitness had a nice little article on vitamin and mineral supplements deemed "must have" for bodybuilders this last issue.  Explained what they do and all...<P>------------------<BR>Feel Free to Underestimate me <BR>||129.80.22.140||reg||
Z||000015||skydancer||07-13-2000||03:53 PM||skydancer43@hotmail.com||LOL! No offense taken JL - in fact I just bought M&F yesterday and saw that article...I'm trying to make sense of it now.  And believe me...I have plenty of questions even if someone gives me an idea of what might work well for me.  That and I am very sensitive to what I'm putting in my system.  If something doesn't feel right, there will be MORE questions.<P>But I appreciate your outlook...I am learning...and I AM willing to read/research whatever...thats what I've been doing but my simple mind is still confused.<P>------------------<BR><I>One must suffer to be beautiful - French Proverb </I><BR>||216.244.31.16||reg||
Z||000016||skydancer||07-13-2000||03:58 PM||skydancer43@hotmail.com||In fact the article on omega 3 and 6 and balancing them....sheesh...I'm still trying to get that one in order.||216.244.31.16||reg||
Z||000017||WarLobo||07-13-2000||03:58 PM||warlobo@operamail.com||I'm sort of crushed... Not one comment on my fine poetry post  <IMG SRC="http://www.elitefitness.com/ubb/frown.gif"><P>I thought is was rather poignant statement, I at least thought we had a few patrons of the arts :P<P>LAte<P>Lobo||199.211.225.194||reg||
Z||000018||MS||07-13-2000||04:06 PM||mad.scientist55@hushmail.com||I take vit C every meal, multivit once a day, minerals once a day, and an antioxidant combo at bedtime.<P>That's it at the moment.  In a few weeks I'll add in some Adipo, ipraflavone, glutamine, carnitine and creatine. A few weeks later I'll add extra yohimbe to my Adipo, and a couple of months down the line I'll be taking Nolvadex and some free-form and BCAA.  At that time I anticipate using GHB at night  to help with sleep disturbances from low-carb dieting, and may throw some 5-HTP into the mix if carb cravings become a problem.<P>Of all that, the stuff I KNOW is working is the Adipo, yohimbe, creatine, GHB, 5-HTP and Nolvadex.  Everything else is just insurance.||139.80.64.4||reg||
Z||000019||gymratgrl||07-13-2000||04:25 PM||pbenamati@aol.com||I've had trouble finding the Adipo.  Who makes it and where can I find it?||208.46.209.203||reg||
Z||000020||skydancer||07-13-2000||04:48 PM||skydancer43@hotmail.com||Okay JL - heres a couple of questions for you...<P>The article suggests more than 1875-5625mg during endurance exercise...first off, what is considered endurance exercise...just cardio days?  Or is there a certain time period that is considered "endurance"?  Also thats a pretty big spread of mg...do you start low and see how it feels?<P>Now for calcium, the suggestion is to take w/mag and vit D...oh never mind...I just answered my own question on that.<P>For the B's - there are many "complex" B formulas - 25, 50 etc....do you think its better to take a complex B or individually with the recommended doses?<P>Thanks all...let me know.<P>Gymratgirl - I got mine at <A HREF="http://www.dpsnutrition.com" TARGET=_blank>www.dpsnutrition.com</A>  ...they had a great price on flax oil too.  Adipo is made by Syntax.<P>------------------<BR><I>One must suffer to be beautiful - French Proverb </I><BR><p>[This message has been edited by skydancer (edited July 13, 2000).]||216.244.31.52||reg||
Z||000021||HDarling||07-13-2000||05:22 PM||||Hey, nothing beats 3 servings per day of prolab n-large2 with full milk....thats 3000kcals dealt with!!!<P>Heather xx <P>------------------<BR> <A HREF="http://www.heatherdarling.com" TARGET=_blank>http://www.heatherdarling.com</A>  ||195.92.67.67||reg||
Z||000022||HDarling||07-13-2000||05:24 PM||||Hey, nothing beats 3 servings per day of prolab n-large2 with full milk....thats 3000kcals dealt with!!!<P>Heather xx <P>------------------<BR> <A HREF="http://www.heatherdarling.com" TARGET=_blank>http://www.heatherdarling.com</A>  ||195.92.67.65||reg||
Z||000023||JayeLynn||07-13-2000||05:38 PM||greyvulf@hotmail.com||Endurance exercises can range anywhere from swimming between countries to doing 12rep sets in the weight room.  Given that wide range in definition in activities, compounded with the range of bodies that may do all of those endurance type things you can justify the 1800-whatever.  I think that it's better to start low and work up.<BR>As for B-comples, I don't want to waste any more of my day on this stuff than you do so you can be sure that I'll go for the single pill solution.  I just find a manufacturer/brand I like and go with it.<P>------------------<BR>Feel Free to Underestimate me <BR>||129.80.22.140||reg||
Z||000024||SassyS||07-13-2000||07:28 PM||latexss@yahoo.com||Ill join in on this one, I take adipo. 2 x 2, vitamin c, tricana (triax, whatever name its currently going by) 1 x 3, yummy chewable mulit-vitamin.  <BR>MS.. you dont have any problems with stomach upset with taking C ,so many times a day?||207.86.230.111||reg||
Z||000025||MS||07-13-2000||08:18 PM||mad.scientist55@hushmail.com||Stomach upset?  What's that?  I think I had it once when I got food poisoning.<P>I know of more people that get upset stomachs from adipo or yohimbe.  The Vit C is only 250 mg 6 x day.<P>HDarling, is N-large2 the only non AS supplement you take??  Is diet something you pay much attention to, or is it just a 'seefood' diet?||139.80.64.4||reg||
Z||000026||BuffBlondie||07-13-2000||09:57 PM||buffchick2@aol.com||MS-<P>Tell me more about GHB...isn't it a date-rape drug too?  I know of a guy at the gym who makes his own GHB, and he's ripped, not too big, but looks great!  Isn't it hard on the heart or something?  Just curious!<P>------------------<BR>If you do what you've always done, you'll end up with what you've always gotten!||152.163.206.209||reg||
Z||000027||Austin316||07-13-2000||11:28 PM||pesmerga316@cs.com||Holy cow Heather, you actually drink that much NLarge,  I take 1 serving and am really starting to hate the taste of it.  Good stuff though, It works.  I get a 10 lb bucket for $40||152.163.195.178||reg||
Z||000028||WarLobo||07-14-2000||12:17 AM||warlobo@operamail.com||OK.... Here is the deal.  If someone does not comment on my poem I'm deletting the whole thread - dam it :p<P>Late<P>Lobo<BR>||64.12.105.154||reg||
Z||000029||Austin316||07-14-2000||12:27 AM||pesmerga316@cs.com||Thats pretty clever Lobo, bet that sure put some hair on your chest lol||152.163.195.178||reg||
Z||000030||Temple||07-14-2000||08:34 AM||dtkb@gpcom.net||Well, you certainly have an artists temperment!  Actually, I have been trying to think of some equally witty reply to your ever so creative work but keep coming up blank so I guess we will just have to make you the official poet laureat of the board and be done with it <IMG SRC="http://www.elitefitness.com/ubb/smile.gif">||216.170.51.134||reg||
Z||000031||riptchick||07-14-2000||09:09 AM||riptchick@operamail.com||Don't feel neglected, Big Guy, I've just been sittin hear wondering what Elephant clit looks like--MUST BE REALLY BIG AND NASTY!   EEEEEWWW! :P Just think, though if it did make us big I think that alot of us WOULD grind in up into a blender and toss it back!<P>||152.163.201.193||reg||
Z||000032||FitnessChick||07-14-2000||10:16 AM||fitnesschick@hushmail.com||Hi all....I am slacking, havent been on the board as often as I would like these days....anyway, as far as supplements are concerned, i am currently taking....<P>thermo- pro (prolab)<BR>multi-vit-min (gnc)<BR>secretagogue(mhp)<BR>arnica montana(generic)(helps with muscle soreness post training)<BR>nor-stak(mhp)<BR>n-large(prolab)<BR>vit c (gnc)<P>just stopped my clen, and soon (next week) starting my next cycle||209.236.133.218||reg||
Z||000033||missgalaxy||07-14-2000||10:24 AM||missgalaxy@hushmail.com||BuffBlondie - <BR>GHB helps to repair your muscles.  It puts you in the state of "realm"  much quicker than your body would reach it on its own.  You take it before bed, you can sleep for 3 hours and feel like you've slept 10. It's great.  I'm waiting on some now.  But the real shit is thick.  There is also renutrient and shit like that that isn't as good.  MS can elborate more.  I don't know that much, but i know i like it.  You just can't abuse it like these punk ass kids do.<BR>missgalaxy<P>||24.92.209.24||reg||
Z||000034||Dlady27||07-14-2000||10:44 AM||||FC, I was wondering if you think that the Clen would help me with my stomach? I have slimmed down alot more since i started this 3 months ago, I am still not "muscles buldging out" but I am alot leaner. <BR>I will have to post my before bikini photo, and then take one for now to show you, so you can let me know what you and IG think. <P>I have stopped the Yohimbe fuel, I was getting too dizzy from it, so whether or not that helped at all who knows. I think it has been the cardio that did most of the work. <BR>I am still waiting to get my bf % done again, havent seen the trainer at the gym lately, so i am waiting to see him. ||208.205.113.135||reg||
Z||000035||skydancer||07-14-2000||11:36 AM||skydancer43@hotmail.com||WL - we were all just so moved by your poetic talents...well there was just nothing else to say!<P>Temper, temper....<P>------------------<BR><I>Patience is a bitter plant, but it has sweet fruit.</I><P>||216.244.31.54||reg||
Z||000036||WarLobo||07-14-2000||12:26 PM||warlobo@operamail.com||Ok, all better today  <IMG SRC="http://www.elitefitness.com/ubb/smile.gif">  Just was a long week what with all the shit going on and such.<P>LAte<P>Lobo||12.10.120.15||reg||
Z||000037||litloak||07-14-2000||12:37 PM||litloak@wildmail.com||Dang!  No wonder why I'm not making the progress I would like to be, I'm not taking enough stuff!!  After reading these posts I see I'm not so knowledgable on what to take in for an awesome hardbod!  Ok, here's my feeble list:<BR>NytroWhey, ProBlend 55, creatine, glutamine, multi-vit/min, ZMA, 1500mg vit C, 400iu vit E, Lean Body MRP.<BR>||208.16.252.61||reg||
Z||000038||FitnessChick||07-14-2000||01:11 PM||fitnesschick@hushmail.com||Dlady---I would not do clen now....you need to work on getting your body functioning properly on its own.....(your old problem)<BR>-my advice is to train hard, keep the cardio MODERATE (dont do too much)you dont want to be a skinny fat person.....eat right.....you need to build up a bit more muscle....wait on clen......are you taking any supplements???||209.236.133.210||reg||
Z||000039||Dlady27||07-14-2000||02:24 PM||||I am taking the Hydroxycuts now, and I have protien drink shakes, also still take the yohimbe sometimes. <BR>But that is it for now. I have my calories up now, I took care of that problem. I am actually hungry now when I should be. <P>PS:  My stomach looks like a skinny fat chicks...help  <IMG SRC="http://www.elitefitness.com/ubb/frown.gif"><p>[This message has been edited by Dlady27 (edited July 14, 2000).]||208.205.113.135||reg||
Z||000040||BuffBlondie||07-14-2000||04:37 PM||buffchick2@aol.com||Missgalaxy-<P>Thanks for the GHB info!<P>I started Lipokinetix today...hope it doesn't make me feel too wierd!<P>Hope everyone's had great workouts today!  It's back and abs day for me!  <IMG SRC="http://www.elitefitness.com/ubb/smile.gif"><P><P>------------------<BR>If you do what you've always done, you'll end up with what you've always gotten!||152.163.195.206||reg||
Z||000041||MS||07-15-2000||01:40 AM||mad.scientist55@hushmail.com||I suspect the GHB could easily make a separate topic, but for now I'll just comment that everyone is different in how they react to it.  It helps me get to sleep, and that's all I use it for.  It actually makes me slightly queasy if I don't lay down after taking it, which is OK when I'm dieting because it kills my hunger.  Personally I can't imagine taking GHB and going out and partying or having sex.  When I wake up from GHB induced sleep, I'm very alert and rested even after only 3-4 hours sleep.<P>Date rape?  I believe alcohol holds the record for the most abused date-rape drug of all time.  I don't see many legislaters crying out to ban alcohol sales!<P>People that get sick or die from GHB.....If you make your own, or take too much, or mix it with other drugs then there is a chance of injuring or killing yourself.  But as a comparison, I'll share a fun statistic I came across yesterday.  100,000 americans will die every year from adverse reactions to PRESCRIBED drugs.  Nuff said.||139.80.64.4||reg||
Z||000042||Caesar||07-15-2000||09:01 AM||||This post is many months old on another board, but thought it might be interesting to some here.  I DO NOT take credit for it, but enjoyed it and I thought it deserved to see a wider audience.<P>"Its great to back from school for the summer! I don't know if anyone remembers me (haven't posted for about 5 months), but heres some stuff I found out in the course of my studies:<BR>1)As a student at the University of Guelph (Canada's leading independant tester of herbal remedies and sups) I've read a ton of studies (not some **** *y articles in Flex or some other mag, but actual research findings) and this is a fact. There are only 3 sups that have proven to be statistically significant (0.1% probability that results are due to chance factors). They are:<BR>-Creatine<BR>-Glutamine (and other Amino-Acids)<BR>-Protein sups<BR>Roids work too, but they ain't really sups. Anything else is a waste of money and time. Thats it. Use these and you can be sure they are actually doing something.<P>2)Also learned that the loading phase for Creatine is BS. Your body already knows how to metabolize it, so you don't have to flood it with it.<P>3)If it has a catchy name (i.e. "Gorilla power strength complex QX514-niner, or "Ripped fuel"), don't waste your time.<P>4)The Best pre-workout sup in the world is 4 litres (about a gallon) of water 1-2 hours before you work out.... try it.<P>5)The best post-workout sup in the world is a 90 minute nap (in the REM stage, your body releases growth hormone... takes about 90 minutes to get there).<P>6)If you got the time, get your protein from real food... MRPs and shakes are time savers, but if you can get it from your diet, its better (try tuna, eggs whites, chicken, etc.)<P>7)Companies are allowed to say "Lab tests show this works", even if its a total lie (they could be using a 90 confidence level for all we know... this means theres a 90% chance that the results of the study are due to chance, not the effects of the sup.), or the results may not be significant at all and they know its due to chance, but they can still say "our stuff works", when the only reason it did is that the subjects started lifting more, eating more, and using steroids along with "Gorilla strength X1 power stack".<P>8)I know its boring, but if you guys are serious about not wanting to get ripped off by crappy supps and you want to know which ones, which brands, which amounts work best, then try reading a journal article by an unbiased source.<P>9) Never underestimate the power of rest. I know its tempting to live at the gym, but I worked hard for 8 months str8, 7 days a week, 2 hrs a day (getting ready for university football and trying to step it up). I put on 15 good, solid pounds during that time, but when I was forced to stop lifting for a month (injury), I noticed that when I went back to the gym, I was lifting more and it was easier. I also put on 5 good lbs in just under a month. <P>Well, thats all I got for now... hope it helps. Later."<P>------------------<BR><B><I>BRING THE PAIN</B></I><BR>||198.164.210.174||reg||
Z||000043||Austin316||07-16-2000||12:30 AM||pesmerga316@cs.com||Hey DLady, do u look like HHH yet?||205.188.195.58||reg||
Z||000044||faith||07-16-2000||11:24 AM||laryn7@hotmail.com||At the momment I take just a multivitamin and some extra C.  I find what works best is the Lipokenetix and L-trytophan.  Great combo!  I also then may add some glutamine and glucosamine.||206.180.129.159||reg||
Z||000045||IronChick||07-16-2000||07:58 PM||fit1@hotbot.com||Ceasar - interesting post there. That has been my experience with supplements. There ain't no magic one that's gonna do what steroids do. The most important thing is to have the correct foundation of vitamin/mineral supplementation and proper food intake. Amino acid supplements, protein supps, and Glutamine are good. The Creatine loading phase IS a bunch of BS - a marketing scam. My main supp focus goes to vit/min/EFAs. If that is not in place, then it really doesn't matter what else you take because you don't have the proper foundation to get the benefit of the other aids. Your body needs the basics just to function normally and ward off illness. Then if you ask your body to do superhuman things like BB, and you aren't providing the basics, your body certainly is not going to take in these extra supplements and use them to build muscles. The body doesn't care anything about additional muscle mass - only about survival. So, if you give it what it needs as far as vit/min/EFAs - the basics - then you can ask more of it and get better results from your "other" supplements. All the simple stuff is really what it is. The rest is intense and consistent training and adequate rest. Most of the sport supplement industry is geared towards duping the public about the magic bullet. Most of the advertising is a damn insult to anyone with average intelligence. Not to mention the fact that thye are all being touted by athletes who use drugs. This is what is confusing the general public - they take the stuff and do not even look remotely similar to the people endorsing it. I have some friends who endorse products for supp companies and they all use steroids to get their muscle size. That's how they got their contracts in the first place. So, the bottom line is you can't trust the supp companies - they are lying to you from the start. You just have to be able to ignore all the hype and stick to the basic stuff. The only time I have ever seen anyone make significant earth-shattering fast changes is through the use of drugs. No supplement can duplicate this. There is no one supplement that "works." That is more of a drug mentality, which sometimes gets people confused if they are not going to use drugs. With supplementation, it's very different. It does not have an instantaneous effect like a drug. It is an over time kind of thing where the body slowly incorporates the things you are putting in and they work together synergystically and somewhere down the road you can notice an improvement if all things are correct. This is where I think confusion happens for people: they are expecting to notice something fairly quickly and that is not the way it happens with supps. All things have to be in place to get a benefit from a program of supplementation. So, you have to live with it and be patient or get on the drugs. The approaches are totally different. (obviously) Don't look for supplements to duplicate steroids or even come close. I have seen a lot of products come and go. Nothing has ever blown my mind. It's all about money. You can't lose that perspective. Just stick with the tried and true stuff and let your body do the rest.<P>------------------<BR><B>{{-}}</B><P>||192.135.215.20||reg||
Z||000046||MS||07-16-2000||08:17 PM||mad.scientist55@hushmail.com||You still cant' convince me that GHB doesn't make me sleep better!  And I know for sure that Nolvadex stops my period.  But I agree in spirit with Caesar's post, especially about the rest/sleep.  I don't think you can sleep too much when trying to put on lean mass. And that's true whether or not your on AS.  And the truth is that anything that will make you put on lots of lean mass quickly will never be available legally OTC in America.  It seems to be the FDA's definition of Anabolic ensures that! So basically, most (legal) supplements are marginal at best, and a complete rip-off at worst.||139.80.64.4||reg||
Z||000047||IronChick||07-16-2000||08:54 PM||fit1@hotbot.com||MS - yes I am sure they work, but GHB and Nolvadex are lumped into the drug category in my realm. If I took any of those and tried to enter a natural show here, they would kick me out. I am just talking about things you can find on the shelf - vitamins, aminos, protein powders, EFAs, which brings me to this geography thing - I'm not sure what country you are in (New Zealand I think I recall) but you probably have access to things OTC which are not available here. You won't be finding any Nolvadex or GHB on our shelves. So, that makes things even murkier as far as what's a drug and what's a supp - maybe your country does not consider GHB a drug, so it's OK for you to take and you can say you are natural and it's true where you are, but here in the US - if you take GHB or Nolvadex you are not natural or drug-free or whatever they are calling it today. Also, GHB used to be OTC here, but the FDA pulled it. And it looks like Andros are going down the same path - I don't take those, either - all banned by the orgs. So, you are right about our FDA pulling anything that works. We seem to have this little problem of mainstream (non-BBs) who find some other way to pervert these substances and abuse them and it inevitably winds up in a death and next thing you know it's on the news. GHB: Killer drug. (Honestly, I do not know if it's current status is an actual "drug" but it is banned by the natural orgs.) The FDA, in conjunction with the Natural Federations themselves and with a little help from the non-natural orgs have killed drug-free BB. (I'll post separately on that next time I have a minute for a rant.) I always worry when I compete against women from other countries as far as what they are taking and whether it is considered natural there as opposed to here. So, they can pass a poly because they think it is OK and because no one ever asks about Nolvadex, specifically. (Nolvadex is not considered a drug where you are??) These are grey area substances, which most of the orgs here have caught on to as their banned lists grow to unbelievable lengths.<P>------------------<BR><B>{{-}}</B><P>||192.135.215.20||reg||
Z||000048||Dlady27||07-17-2000||09:28 AM||||Austin316,  who is "HHH" ?<P>I do not understand that...||208.205.113.135||reg||
Z||000049||MS||07-17-2000||02:55 PM||mad.scientist55@hushmail.com||Iron Chick, I am not a 'natural' competitor in the sense that I have only competed in 'ordinary' events.  But these events still employ random urine sampling to IOC standards.  Do 'natural' events have even more banned stuff than the IOC?  I am confused by the whole natty issue.  By IOC standards nolvadex and GHB are not tested for, but ephedrine is.  Then I visit Suzanna McGee's 'natural olympia' website and see she wholeheartedly endorses the use of ephedrine for dieting.  WTF???  I don't see what 'off the shelf' has to do with it.  Birth control pills are not available OTC, but imagine the uproar if natural competitions banned them!<BR>Just a rant.  Got it off my chest now.||139.80.64.4||reg||
Z||000050||skydancer||07-17-2000||07:28 PM||skydancer43@hotmail.com||WarLobo - okay I set myself up on a vit/min plan but was curious to see what you came up with so I can do a comparison...have you had any time to do that?<P>------------------<BR><I>Patience is a bitter plant, but it has sweet fruit.</I><P>||216.244.31.61||reg||
Z||000051||WarLobo||07-17-2000||10:45 PM||warlobo@operamail.com||Humm... well.... One thing I am doing is contacting TwinLabs and see what they might be able to do on your situation.  They have done some very cool stuff in the past and I figured that would be my first step.  Heck, they might have an idea on how to work around this.  I mean you still have to have iodine in SOME form.  Maybe it is the common binding agent or something that most manufactures use.  You never know.  I just find it very hard to think your body rejects a major mineral.<P>LAte<P>Lobo||205.188.193.187||reg||
Z||000052||skydancer||07-17-2000||11:35 PM||skydancer43@hotmail.com||well for now I am following the plan suggested in M&F - the top 12 supp's...it actually wasn't too expensive to do.<P>All I know is after I take a multi for several days, I have breakouts....same thing if I go out for sushi and eat the seaweed.  (Which I do of course because I love it)<P>Plus I have read that too much iodine can cause breakouts so I just put the two together.  Now it could be something else in the multi but I've tried a lot of different brands and as natural as I can get them and still the same result.<P>TwinLabs doesn't carry one w/o it according to DPS and my local health food store.<P>Thanks though WL for the effort.  I appreciate it!||207.114.212.10||reg||
Z||000053||Boogieman||07-18-2000||12:03 PM||ytk2000@hushmail.com||off topic<P>dirtyratt - please read my post 'Beware!!!' in the supplement discussion board. nathigh.com is a scam company. they don't have any idea about customer service.<P>do not truth them with your order! i still haven't receive all my orders after 3 months now and his not doing shit to help. i'm still in the process of disputing my order with my credit card company.<P>please go read my post.<BR>||161.142.220.4||reg||