A||||29||masterhunker||new-looking 4 advice||||||
Z||000000||masterhunker||06-13-2000||12:11 PM||krise29@yahoo.com||I am relatively new to this.  Have been teaching aerobics for 11 yrs-but have always eaten like a pig-and have never taken good care of myself.  I am just starting to REALLY wieght train.  I am a 30 y/o f, 122 lbs, 17% b/f-w/ goals of lower b/f and pretty big muscle gains.  I have the "jane Fonda" mentality mentioned in other posts of starving myself, doing tons of cardio...I have a hard time making myself eat enough to really build like I want to.  I am working out hard-harder than I ever have, and am seeing awesome results.  I just need help w/ my diet, supplements, and a few training questions.  First off-I don't eat much.  I'm getting better on that.  My "trainer" introduced me to Clen-but from what I've read-he is slightly misinformed.  I recently took it upon myself to do a 1 wk on, 1 wk off cycle and have seen better results.  I am also taking something called Beta 3.  I've been looking for info on this, but haven't found anything.  He also wants me to take HMB, but it makes me puke.  Does anyone know if there is chitosan (sp?) in that?  I'm deathly allergic to shellfish and the HMB made me break out in hives.  Should I be doing 60 minutes of cardio 5 days a week?  I teach aerobics-so a bit of the cardio is necessary.  But I do the stairmaster every morning-then eat my egg whites, oatmeal and cantaloupe.  I am training w/ weights 4 days a week (M,T-Th,F).  I am getting so many mixed suggestions here and I don't want to get yelled at by any of you!  I've seen that a few of y'all are a bit hostile!  Any help is greatly appreciated.  One more thing...I have a grotesque amount of post-pregnancy, old man face looking skin under my bellybutton.  My abs are really shaping up-but the loose skin seems to want to stay.  Suggestions???||209.84.95.2||reg||
Z||000001||WarLobo||06-13-2000||12:31 PM||warlobo@operamail.com||Hello Masterhunker, good to have you aboard.  And I promis we will not yell at ya - at least not too loud  <IMG SRC="http://www.elitefitness.com/ubb/wink.gif">    Just been some pasionate posting of late and all in all that's a good thing.  Folks who care about what they are doing and wish to improve are often very motivated and want to see others improve as well.  And sometimes this is a bit overwhelming to the newer ladies.  So I'll leave it at that and let see what we can come up with to help you out.<P>My first suggestion would be to take a few moments and go over the many great posts - which sounds like you may have done already.<P>My fisrt bit of advice is SCREW the HMB!  I think it may be time to post up my little article on that stuff....<P>Again, great to have ya posting and hang in there<P>Late<P>Lobo  <P>||12.10.120.15||reg||
Z||000002||BigPappa||06-13-2000||01:29 PM||||You need to rotate your workouts...seems you are doing a lot of aerobic activity only.  You might have what's called "fat aerobics instructor syndrom".<P>We've all seen them... Fat aerboics instructors who live at the gym doing aerobics all day and one is left to wonder, "how can she be so fat when she works out all day???". Well, its because the body adjusts and gets used to your workout routine. Oh, the bad diet doesn't help either. Do the clen 2 weeks and 2 weeks off. In the 2 weeks off, do something like Diet Fuel which is a pretty good clen substitute.||204.255.124.5||reg||
Z||000003||masterhunker||06-13-2000||03:32 PM||krise29@yahoo.com||thanks for the input!  I probably do have the fat aerobics instructor syndrome-or whatever you said Pappa!  I'm learning so much these days about all of this it is somewhat overwhelming at times.  I tossed the HMB, and have been sticking to what he told me to take (1 clen, 1 aspirin, 2 Beta 3's).  I do this in the morn. and afternoon.  I have cut my teaching down to 3 classes a week-and have been concentrating on "real" cardio and have seen a big difference.  I hit a plateau big time.  I could eat whatever I wanted-and the aerobics classes enabled me to maintain my weight.  I wasn't too concerned w/ my body b/c I still looked decent.  Now that I hit the big 30-I'm wanting to up it.  I was amazed at the body fat I lost just by eating right for 1 month!  Thanks so much for the input on my post-and pardon me if I seem ignorant at times.  I'm working my ass off-and am so pumped about the results!  I just need a little more guidance than what I've been getting.||209.84.95.2||reg||
Z||000004||BigPappa||06-13-2000||04:15 PM||||Your positive attitude is half the work so you are 50% there...keep it up!!!<P>I would also recommend weight training. For some reason, people think women don't need to train "as heavy as men".  This is the farthest from the truth for woman if you want to tone up and build muscle.  Hard workouts is one hell of an aerobic activity and you will burn calories AND raise your testosterone level which are two MAIN things required to burn fat.  Try some good weight training...minimal of 9 sets per bodypart.  And do it heavy too meaning no more than 10-12 GOOD reps per set.||204.255.124.5||reg||
Z||000005||masterhunker||06-13-2000||04:21 PM||krise29@yahoo.com||I must have left that out.  I AM weight training.  I am seeing such a major difference in my body!  It actually makes me want to work out longer and more days than I do.  I do weights m,t,th, & f.  Usually 1 hour, maybe a little longer.  My biggest problem is not eating enough.  I used to skip breakfast-eat a small lunch, and pig out for dinner.  My boyfriend said I need to eat, eat, eat.   That's hard for me.  Y'all are awesome though.  Thanks so much!||209.84.95.2||reg||
Z||000006||MS||06-13-2000||04:30 PM||mad.scientist55@hushmail.com||I suspect this will have been covered somewhere in a post before, but here's my interpretation on the 'fat aerobics instructor syndrome'.  The body is VERY adaptable.  If a body is asked to perform several hours of cardio every day for years at a time without enough quality calories and little resistance training, it adapts in several important ways.  The first adaptation is to 'dump' excess muscle. In other words it learns that glycogen (to perform the aerobics) is more valuable than muscle (we're not using that stuff) so it slowly but surely will convert muscle to energy it can use.  Remember, if you're not eating enough your body will get it's energy from somehere else!<P>After your body has burned all the glycogen it can get it's hands on (by hook or crook), then it will begrudgingly start to burn fat.  Although this sounds like a good thing, when done chronically it just teaches your body to store as much fat (mostly subcutaneous) as it can because it has learned it will need those stores again tomorrow.  This is not always bad, and most good endurance athletes will have a 'healthy' layer of subcutaneous fat that they've trained they're bodies to tap into during gruellng events.  But if you want to look svelt and muscular, this is not the way to get there.<P>The bottom line is: <BR>If you want to look like a marathon runner, then train like a marathon runner.<BR>If you want to look like a sprinter, then train like a sprinter.<BR>If you want to look like something in between, then cross-training is the way to go.<P>But you can be sure neither the sprinter or the marathoner are going to train on a calorie restricted diet.<P>Of course, if you want to look like Jane Fonda.........well there's nothing wrong with that either.  As long as you're happy.<P>How long ago was your last pregnancy?  With diet, exercise and time some of that excess skin will disappear.  Did you gain a lot of weight with the pregnancy (and then rapidly lose it)?<P>------------------<BR>The Mad Scientist<BR>||139.80.178.6||reg||
Z||000007||BigPappa||06-13-2000||04:34 PM||||Get yourself a meal replacement.  Something like Myoplex or Nitro-tech.  Take one in the morning for breakfast and one after working out, presumably for early dinner.  Taking that will ensure you get a good does of proteins, carbs, vitamins, etc...and it will keep you on a good calorie ratio.  Back in the day, these weren't available and then Mex-Rx came around and eating egg whites, canned tuna, etc. was a thing of the past.  Just my .02$||204.255.124.5||reg||
Z||000008||masterhunker||06-19-2000||11:26 AM||krise29@yahoo.com||My last pregnancy was 4 years ago.  I "only" gained 45 lbs. w/ her-and didn't have a hard time at all getting it off (not too fast).  My first preg.was 6 years ago and I blimped.  I did everything under the sun to get the weight off (bad, bad, bad).  I'm currently taking ISOPURE.  Half in mid-AM, half afternoon.  Is that good enough for a meal replacement?  I gorged this weekend at a wedding in New Orleans-so I feel like I'm starting all over again.  I saw such awesome gains in the last month-now I feel like it's all gone to hell.  Boyfriend and trainer mentioned something to me about Nor-something.  Once again-sorry for the ignorance.  They said something about injecting it into my shoulders.  First off-what the hell is it-and second-will I grow a penis???  <IMG SRC="http://www.elitefitness.com/ubb/smile.gif">||209.84.95.2||reg||
Z||000009||bikinimom||06-19-2000||03:21 PM||bikinimom@home.com||Could somebody please tell me why steroids are the only answer?  Believe it or not YOU can lose fat and build muscle WITHOUT THE USE OF STEROIDS.<P>This whole problem of not eating enough and "cardio-ing" yourself to death is really common among women.  I myself went through it for three years.  I had no problem maintain my weight because I did primarily weight train (as heavily as I could with good form) then did cardio @ 5 -6 days (30 min) - all this on only 1,200 calories a day if not 1,000.  So I got big and ripped ... NOT!!!!!  I was small and hard, but I really wanted to grow.  So what was in my magic bag of tricks?  FOOD!<P>I'm 5'4". In Dec 99 I weighed 108 - 110lbs.  Don't know my bf, but I wore a size O in adults clothing and a children's size 12.  NOT NORMAL!<P>I ate enough to grow, took some good supplements, lifted intensely, cut cardio to 3 times per week (45 min) and competed in May at 109lbs at 8%bf - NATURALLY.<P>Masterhunker, I'm not yelling at you.  You have to find what works for you and run with it.  GOOD LUCK, GIRL!<P>PS - About the loose skin, if you've only had two children it should eventually go on it's own.  Did you have C-section or NVD?||24.4.252.72||reg||
Z||000010||WarLobo||06-19-2000||08:12 PM||warlobo@operamail.com||Oh Boy, do I see a pot that needs a stir'en!<P> ---"Could somebody please tell me why steroids are the only answer?"---<P>They are not the only answer... They are the most effective answer.<P>---"Believe it or not YOU can lose fat and build muscle WITHOUT THE USE OF STEROIDS"---<P>And you can also build a house without a hammer, but it's a lot harder.  If ya got the tools, use them!<P>Late<P>Lobo<P>p.s. Bikinimom, welcome to the boards, you got some fire in yas!<P><BR> <P>||199.211.225.194||reg||
Z||000011||MS||06-19-2000||08:50 PM||mad.scientist55@hushmail.com||How did steroids get into this discussion?  Is it that Nor-something injection in the shoulders (don't do it masterhunker).  <P>Try eating properly.  That means 5 sound meals every day.  If you're not sure what I mean by a sound meal then feel free to say so and we'll give you some guidelines.  In the beginning try to make as many of your next day's meals in advance and make it an automatic habit to eat them by the clock.  Don't listen to your brain or stomach, just eat every 2.5 to 3 hours religiously. Keep up all the other good stuff you're doing with weights, cardio, clenbuterol, etc... and give it a month to see if it's working.  If not, then you can try other things.<P>------------------<BR>The Mad Scientist<BR>||139.80.178.6||reg||
Z||000012||bikinimom||06-19-2000||10:14 PM||bikinimom@home.com||Warlobo, maybe I'm just an old-fashioned kind of girl, but sue me, I believe in doing things the old fashioned way.  Does this mean that I won't use carseats to protect my children  ...because they didn't have those when I was a kid and we still grew up?  HELL NO!  I'm all for progress and technology, but I don't believe that a novices FIRST approach should be drugs.  The quickest way is not always the best way.<P>I was just reading a post by Ironchick.  She has been in the iron game a long time and she feels that she has reached her genetic potential and is struggling with whether or not to take it to the next level.  I can sympathize with her plight (not that I'm there yet by any stretch of the imagination) but as I continue in my own development I realize that this might someday become a delima for me also.  I believe that her concerns are valid.<P>I am not an advocate of steroid use ESPECIALLY not as one's first course of action.  However, I'm not saying that there aren't those with whom I do agree they are a "necessary evil".<P>I also have to say that I am glad that there is this forum for education about the topic of drug use.  Knowledge is power.<P>Warlobo thank you for your kind words but I must say that I agree to disagree with you about this topic ESPECIALLY IN THIS CASE.  To equate the construction of a house without the help of proper tools to building one's own physique without steroids is, I feel, inaccurate at best.<P>Even though I must admit that my knowledge about the topic of steroids is limited, I invite the debate.  Educate me!  <IMG SRC="http://www.elitefitness.com/ubb/smile.gif"><BR>||24.4.252.72||reg||
Z||000013||skydancer||06-19-2000||10:59 PM||skydancer43@hotmail.com||Very well said bikinimom...I too believe we can get to where we need to go without the use of a/s.  I also agree that for competing people and the way it all works these days that a/s is an unfortunate part of the party.  But for first timers, people new to lifting, those who haven't even gotten close to maxing out their bodies potential, there is no need.  <P>Yes Lobo - building a house without a hammer is hard. (Thats why they have air tools - j/k) But I don't personally believe that steroids are neccessary tools for everyone.  ||207.114.212.149||reg||
Z||000014||MS||06-20-2000||02:49 PM||mad.scientist55@hushmail.com||WELL DONE WARLOBO.  You wanted to the stir the pot.  Ya gotta admire a guy that accomplishes what he sets out to do.<P>It's been said before, but I'll reword it.  The best thing about this board is the open debate and exchange of ideas, most of which takes place without TOO much flaming.<P>But this topic was originally about how to get masterhunker on the right track.  She was confused to begin with, but imagine what she must be thinking now!  Sorry if you're even more confused.  So far almost all the advice you've been given here is good advice.  Now get out there and do it.<BR><P>------------------<BR>The Mad Scientist<BR>||139.80.178.6||reg||
Z||000015||masterhunker||06-20-2000||03:29 PM||krise29@yahoo.com||Thanks to everyone's input!  I'm simply doing what I know is working so far.  I have a very hard time eating so much-I know that is going to be my biggest problem.  I've been SO against any steroid use by anyone my whole life.  I'm not really sure why I'm even taking Clen.  I know I could do this on my own-I think it's a mental thing w/ me.  BTW bikinimom-you look awesome!  I saw your pics-and voted for ya!  One more question for everyone.  I went to a wedding last weekend and ate everything I could get my hands on.  I'm paying for it dearly now!  My trainer said I needed to up my cardio!!!  I'm already doing an hour every morning.  He wants me to do another hour at night!  This on top of the aerobics/kickboxing classes I teach.  Don't y'all think that's a bit excessive?  I hate to put all of my faith into someone and follow them blindly-but that's what I'm doing.  I'm retaining a ton of water from my binge-and he said I needed to sweat it all out.  Will someone please educate me on this?!?!||209.84.95.2||reg||
Z||000016||skydancer||06-20-2000||03:43 PM||skydancer43@hotmail.com||What works for one person may not work for another.  2hrs of cardio at different times of the day would feel like too much for me.<P>I would look at why you ate so much.  Are you getting enough macro nutrients the rest of the time?  I've had problems with binging for over 10yrs...but since i've started eating enough of the right stuff (you can see a sample menu under Texas Guns post) I have no desire to overeat anymore.  I've been a huge sugar junkie in the past and I swear even fruit tastes too sweet for me now.<P>Drink lots and lots of water....that helps get rid of water retention too.  Well, it does for me anyway.<P>Above all, you are right to not throw 100% of your faith in the trainer.  You have to listen to your own body and whats feeling right for you.||209.179.217.65||reg||
Z||000017||MS||06-20-2000||03:58 PM||mad.scientist55@hushmail.com||It probably did you a world of good having that binge.  And the fluid retention will go in it's own good time with a good diet and lots of water.  No need to kill yourself on the cardio to get rid of it.  Just eat as low in sodium as you can and drink at least a gallon of water for the next few days.<BR>Burp. We're all just jealous of the good feed you had.<P>------------------<BR>The Mad Scientist<BR>||139.80.178.6||reg||
Z||000018||masterhunker||06-20-2000||04:09 PM||krise29@yahoo.com||Thanks guys!  Macronutrients???  Sorry-it's been a while since Anatomy/Biology...I'm a huge sugar/salt junkie.  Craving a monster Dr. Pepper as we speak-and a big ass bag of Sour Cream & Onion chips.  BUT-this freakin protien bar will have to do.  And I aint gunna lie-the food in New Orleans ROCKED.  And I think a few of those rocks fell into my behind-as I'm feeling a little more junk in my trunk this week. Ah well-back to the egg whites/tuna...||209.84.95.2||reg||
Z||000019||JayeLynn||06-20-2000||04:11 PM||greyvulf@hotmail.com||If a trainer started preaching at me about increasing my cardio every time my body went into a water retention phase, I'd kill him.  Water retention happens for a number of reasons and with my body it's just part of the normal cycles.  ...sometimes worse than others, but never unmanageable.  A little extra vitamin C almost always takes care of it, but do be sure to drink lots of water.<P>------------------<BR>Feel Free to Underestimate me <BR>||129.80.22.140||reg||
Z||000020||AZ Trainer||06-20-2000||04:27 PM||fiedor@hotmail.com||As a fellow natural lifter, I just want to applaud those people that do things the old fashioned way<BR>I am not trying to condemn steroid users, it is after all a personal choice... <BR>But since my ultimate goal is life long fitness (and not to get as humanly huge as possible), I think steroids just pose too much of a risk as do other "extreme" supplements<P>I do have a beef with personal trainers (being one myself) that push steroids on their clients though... I think this sends a negative message that the only way to achieve results through training is with major drug enhancement.... when most people can accomplish their goals naturally (top level competitive bbs excluded)<P>Just my two cents on the topic <IMG SRC="http://www.elitefitness.com/ubb/smile.gif"><P>------------------<BR>A Hard Woman is Good to Find||63.225.203.180||reg||
Z||000021||riptchick||06-20-2000||05:00 PM||||I wanna put in my .02 as well. This is how I see it as far as advice goes from trainers and others who purport to be "in-the-know".  What kind of body do they have?  Really look at it hard.  I had the liberty of learning most of the gym basics from my boyfriend who was always big, beefy and ripped.  Most of the trainers I see in the gym have just average looking bodies.  I figure, and I think this is just common sense, if they were so knowledgable why don't they look like a fitness competitor/bodybuilder?  It is very easy to give advice to someone....look I'm doing it right now..he he...but your job now that you made up your mind to seek the truth (evidenced by you asking questions on this board) is to absorb as much information as possible and chronicle what's working and what's not.  You'll get to where you want to be in no uncertain terms and by your own choice.  This board is an excellent source of information.  Take what you need and leave the rest.  Look for other sources of information as well...maybe someone who has a body like the one you are seeking to get.  <IMG SRC="http://www.elitefitness.com/ubb/wink.gif">||205.188.200.184||reg||
Z||000022||WarLobo||06-20-2000||05:51 PM||warlobo@operamail.com||Can I stir?  Or CAN I STIR!  And it's damn hard to get one past MS, you always catch things ('cept of course :p )<P>First off, some background info fer yah B. Mom and for some of the other newbees... Cause you have probably have not had the time to follow all of my postings. I was nat for some 15 years and I always have believed in working up to your nat potential - and have said so many times.  So we're in agreement on this issue, I'm sort of confused as to how you thought other wise.<P>As I re-read the posts, I am somewhat confused again as to why you got excited and even mentioned steroids in the first place.  Non of us said one thing about using them at all.  And in fact. I would bet we were all just about ready to jump in and scream "NO NOR-ANDRO INJECTIONS" had I not posted my little post.<P>An FYI on the "old fashion bit" roids have been around since the 50's and this is where I'd like to do a minor rant.  Steroids are not harmful if used CORRECTLY, in fact they can IMPROVE the overall well being and physical condition of the human body.  Period!  And I'd LOVE someone to pick up that gauntlet. And you better have the blood work to back your shit cause I do. Now please don't use the few extreme cases out there which I consider to be steroid ABUSE. <P>You did not really respond to my statement, "They are not the only answer... They are the most effective answer."<P>And I rather liked the hammer and the house bit, cept, per Sky's idea, I would change it to an air hammer - NOW THAT'S GOT SOME POWER :P<P>I guess what most concerns me is that we have to many people who look at steroids as a MORAL CHOICE.  Folks, it's not evil, it's not wrong, or un-natural.  It has nothing to do about training philosophy.  They are chemicals, just like any other chemical, nothing more and nothing less, as are vitamins, creatine, E/C/A, and a host of other "supplements" - and shall I mention BC pills….HUMMM?!?!  Ladies and germs, they are nothing but tools which will help you overcome genetic limits.  Like any tool, it must be learned to be used correctly and safely.  In my mind, that why this board is here, to stop the destructive ignorance and improve the overall condition of the human body through hard work, proper nutrition, and the use of available tools.  <P>And if you ask me, based on the growth of this board alone, we've all done one hell of a job at it.<P>Late<P>Lobo<P>||12.10.120.15||reg||
Z||000023||MS||06-20-2000||06:47 PM||mad.scientist55@hushmail.com||All that WarLobo says is truth (in this case at least).  But one very important consideration on this board is the other truth which is that STEROIDS ARE VERY ILLEGAL IN AMERICA unless you are taking them under a doctor's supervision.  I'ts a bit like recommending someone tries some cocaine or speed to boost thier weightloss effort.  That would also be very 'efficient'. But just as illegal.<P>The other, ummmm, issue I have is not that steroids are unhealthy when used appropriately, but the fact that the VAST majority of recreational users DO NOT use them properly.  Proper use would require regular checkups with your GP to monitor blood levels of gear and keep an eye out for early signs of side effects.  One of the most enlightened people I know of in this respect is a female PRO that trains at my gym.  She tells her GP EVERYTHING that she takes (and why) and gets her T3 on prescription because her large AAS use has pushed her natural levels down.  Listen up.  She's a PRO and takes many risks, but will not tolerate a GP who cannot put aside their predjudices and treat the patient. Safe Use of AAS would also require legalization so that Jane Smith did not have to buy on the black market and risk injecting harmful or unsterile substances.  Until these changes happen, I will not be arbitrarily recommending AAS use to people.  But if they come here specifically asking how to use something (in other words 'hell bent' on doing it anyway) I will do my best to educate them in the safest and most effective use.<P>I've said it before-I'm pro-choice when it comes to all drugs.  But first we have to remove the stigma and legal probs that accompany some of them.<P>------------------<BR>The Mad Scientist<BR>||139.80.178.6||reg||
Z||000024||riptchick||06-20-2000||06:53 PM||||What a can of worms huh?  Regardless of anyone's stance on the subject...Having the information is just as important as how one feels about using them or not using them.  I say kudos to the board for having a forum where we can discuss it....||152.163.194.202||reg||
Z||000025||MS||06-20-2000||06:55 PM||mad.scientist55@hushmail.com||Hear Hear riptchick.  This board is cooooool||139.80.178.6||reg||
Z||000026||bikinimom||06-20-2000||11:02 PM||bikinimom@home.com||I must say that this discussion has been most enlightening.  Perhaps a/s have gotten a bad rap because of all of those that have abused them.  <P>I am not now nor have I ever maintained the notion that steroids when used to treat medical conditions are an immoral or evil thing.  However, I do not place "wanting striations on my female ass" in the medical condition category.<P>Having said that, perhaps the reason why I jumped all over this like a crazed individual waving my "morality banner" is because I sense that Masterh's problems will not be rectified with ANY supplement, whether it be a pill, powder, or injectable.  How close am I girl? Email me.  I'm no shrink, but the stuff you're saying is hitting real close to home.<P>PS MasterH - Lose the "trainer", I'm no expert, but the individual sounds like bad news.<P>Lobo, I apologize for "jumping the gun" it's just that I can get really passionate when I feel someone else's pain.  I have a strong sense that MasterH has got more to deal with than just bad advice from (what seems to be) a lousy "trainer".<P>Perhaps I'm in the dark ages when it comes to a/s because of my own ignorance.  We all fear what we do not understand.  So, bring it on!  Knowledge is power <IMG SRC="http://www.elitefitness.com/ubb/smile.gif"><BR>||24.4.252.72||reg||
Z||000027||WarLobo||06-21-2000||10:48 AM||warlobo@operamail.com||Apology accepted Mom, but also my complements.  Like I've mentioned a time or two, your a live wire - that's just fine by me.  Your posts show a genuine concern, a willingness to learn, and some down right good success.  In my book, that is some fine and first rate traits.<P>MS, yes, there is that little problem of becoming a felon here in the states... sheesh.<P>And don't you know?  Monitors are always right :p<P>Late<P>Lobo <BR><p>[This message has been edited by WarLobo (edited June 21, 2000).]||12.10.120.15||reg||
Z||000028||Artemis||06-21-2000||11:29 AM||huntress@operamail.com||How pray tell, did large doses of AAS lower endogenous T3?  Surely males aren't experiencing these problems... (just curious)<P>I'm agreeing with Warlobo regards to moral outrage and AAS.  Politicians should get over it, sooner the better.     <P>Appologies that I am currently not in the proper mindset to debate the rest.<P>||131.104.100.142||reg||
Z||000029||MS||06-21-2000||03:39 PM||mad.scientist55@hushmail.com||Now we're WAY off topic, but this is a brief post for Artemis to follow up if she wants to.<P>Research has shown that high dose androgens pushes T3<BR>                   levels down (15,16).  This is significant because the real value of optimal<BR>                   thyroid levels is not for fat loss, but instead for optimum anabolic<BR>                   activity. T3 has diverse facilitative anabolic effects including, increasing<BR>                   GH secretion(16,17), up-regulating GH receptors (18), up-regulating<BR>                   IGF-1 receptors (19,20), and other less well defined anabolic effects<BR>                   (21,22). Don’t get the wrong idea however, for T3 to facilitate<BR>                   anabolism, it must stay in the high normal range. A little too high or a<BR>                   little too low significantly changes the biological effects of thyroid<BR>                   hormones. Bringing T3 levels too high will undoubtedly backfire and<BR>                   lead to muscle, strength losses, and rebound fat gain.<P>15. Deyssig R., Weissel M. Ingestion of androgenic-anabolic steroids induces<BR>                   mild thyroidal impairment in male body builders. J Clin Endocrin Metab. 76(4):<BR>                   1069-1071, 1992<P>                   16. Markku A., Rahkila P., Reinila M., & Vihko R. Androgenic-anabolic steroid<BR>                   effects on serum thyroid, pituitary and steroid hormones in athletes. Am J<BR>                   Sports Med. 15(4):357-361, 1987<BR><P>------------------<BR>The Mad Scientist<BR>||139.80.178.6||reg||