BTW, LadyJaye, what info did you find?
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"That which does not kill us, makes us stronger!"
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Z||000002||JayeLynn||05-01-2000||12:57 PM||greyvulf@hotmail.com||Tried Adipokinetix and would give it a thumbs up over Xanedrine...which is pretty much the same as Hydroxy: useless.
Adipo contains Yohimbe which is supposed to help mobilize stubborn fat deposits, but is also raises your bp. I have naturally low bp. After enduring excrutiating headaches for about a week, I somehow managed to survive a hockey game where my legs felt like lead and my head felt like it was going to blow. I was supplementing my adipo with 10mg of Yohimbe at the time. Taking a break from both fixed the headaches, and my sleep patterns are back to normal. Now let me tell you about what went right. Although I did not lose any weight on the scale, I was definately seeing the difference in the mirror. My battles w.r.t %BF revolves around the desperate efforts to preserve that C-cup. As you all know, that which affords those feminine curves between the shoulders and belly button is not stubborn fat. I really liked the adipo because it seemed to help me target more around the legs and hips. Just watch for the sides associated with yohimbe, and sleep changes.
I'll be going a second round with both (reduced yohimbe!) next week because I think that this one actually works.
Q: Adipokinetix does not contain asprin. Has anyone seen improved results supplementing with asprin?||129.80.22.140||reg|| Z||000003||LadyJaye||05-01-2000||01:33 PM||suzannec1978@aol.com||JayLynn - I supplemented the hydroxycut with asprin and it didn't seem to help.
AS for Mrs. Texas Guns question - a rundown of what info I found:
ADIPOKINETIX
contains 1R,2S Norephedrine HCI (supposed to be less jittery-causing than ephedra, and safer)
Yohimbe HCI (supposed to help with stubborn fat in lower body ie;love handles, saddlebags - also supposed to raise your libido!)
Caffeine abt. 90mg
Syntrax, the makers, reccomend supplementing with guggulbolic which I was going to do to raise metabolism
Adipokinetix is cheaper for a larger supply 23.95 for 180 caps but if you supplement with Guggubolic or Triax then it's more.
MD6
contains the norephedrine, caffeine and yohimbine for the same reasons as adipo but slightly higher doses of caffeine (10mgs. more) and yohimbine (2.5 mgs. more)
But MD6 also contains:
Guggul extract - for the raised metabolism
Alpha lipoic acid - increases insulin sensitivity and glucose utilization
L-tyrosine - supports thyroid function and is a precursor to T3
this is a little more expensive than adipo but it contains more including the guggul which I would have supplemented with anyway.
$26.65 for 120 caps
It sounds to me that MD6 is the one to try but I'm still awaiting some personal experiences.||205.188.193.174||reg|| Z||000004||Texas Guns||05-01-2000||04:38 PM||texas_guns@hotmail.com||Now are both of these available over the counter. I was in my supplement store yesterday and saw something like this. I will go back today and compare ingredients. If it is more effective than hydroxycut and saves the loss of our "feminine curves", then I will definitely try it. Thanks for the info and I am also interested in hearing the results from our other ladies here.
Mrs. TG
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"That which does not kill us, makes us stronger!"
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Z||000005||LadyJaye||05-01-2000||07:07 PM||suzannec1978@aol.com||Yes they are both available over the counter. Md6 is made by Biotest and Adipokinetix is made by Syntrax.||152.163.201.184||reg||
Z||000006||LadyJaye||05-01-2000||07:51 PM||suzannec1978@aol.com||Thanks Mrs. Guns for posting my question on the Anabolics board! Hopefully it'll get more responses.||205.188.193.59||reg||
Z||000007||WarLobo||05-02-2000||11:40 PM||warlobo@operamail.com||Still waiting to see if the Adipokinetix is worth a hoot. My bets are that it is no better than any of the other OTC products out there.
Late
Lobo||205.188.197.169||reg|| Z||000008||Artemis||05-03-2000||01:53 AM||huntress@operamail.com||So what is it that yohimbine is supposed to do? Blockade the alpha-2 receptors? Which are likely too numerous in sex-specific fatty areas? And act to prevent fatty acids from leaving the cells when this receptor is stimulated? Is that how it goes?
How long does this effect appear to last? Do the fat cells which are over-populated with alpha-2 fill up very quickly afterwards?
Is there something else that might work to address the problem better? ie. down-regulate production of these excess alpha-2 receptors rather than blocking them?
Or just save-up and book liposculpture?||131.104.100.115||reg|| Z||000009||WarLobo||05-03-2000||11:59 AM||warlobo@operamail.com||My number one option for long term and PERMANENT results is LIPO
LAte
Lobo||12.10.120.15||reg|| Z||000010||Texas Guns||05-03-2000||01:07 PM||texas_guns@hotmail.com||I'm with you Lobo!!!! Do you want to donate to my Lipo fund????????????????? Any givers out there???????????
Mrs. TG
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"That which does not kill us, makes us stronger!"
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Z||000011||JayeLynn||05-03-2000||03:34 PM||greyvulf@hotmail.com||I did the lipo thing folks and even though it's wonderful, it's NOT perfect. ....which is fine for the average person, not the perfectionist. Aren't we all perfectionists here?||129.80.22.140||reg||
Z||000012||massmonster2||05-13-2000||04:18 AM||massmonster2@aol.com||I like adipo. I use it on my off days of clen and can really feel it. I would give it a try if I were you. You have nothing to lose||152.163.213.73||reg||
Z||000013||MS||05-13-2000||05:04 PM||mad.scientist55@hushmail.com||Both Adipo and MD6 work just fine. But it makes more sense to buy the Adipo and take that until your metabolism slows down, THEN add in the guggles if you feel you must. The MD6 mix is sorta like the sledge-hammer approach to dieting and doesn't leave you much to fall back on after the first few weeks when your body adapts to it. Alpha-lipoic acid is such a great antioxidant you should consider taking it as a supplement even when not dieting. Tyrosine? Maybe, but if you're on a high protein cutting diet you're not likely to be short of it.
As an aside on the guggles, the real world results are not very impressive even if it's extracted to Syntrax's or Biotest's "highest standards". (LOL) It certainly is good for lowering cholesterol though.
And if you're not TOTALLY bored by this subject yet, then I'll tell you a little bedtime story about Yohimbine. The human studies that have benn done with this stuff showed it could improve lipolysis by acting on alpha-2 receptors. But the outcome of these studies indicated
1) A dose of 0.2mg/kg was optimal as a single dose
2) The dose should be administered on an empty stomach 15-30 minutes before exercise. (Increased insulin levels/blood glucose antagonise the effect of the Yohimbine).
With those two findings in mind it doesn't make any sense to me to divide the dose of yohimbine over 2-3 servings per day, especially when 2 of those servings may not be on an empty stomach. In other words, maybe better to hit it first thing and hit it hard and then lay of the yohimbine for the rest of the day.
BTW 0.2mg/kg works out to 12 mg for a 130 lb person
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The Mad Scientist
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Z||000014||WonderWoman||05-15-2000||09:26 AM||wonderwoman@thewirehouse.com||Just got some adipo by syntrax. Will use it in combination w/ triac for my next leaning phase. Would like to do cycle rotations with clen. For example: 2 weeks adipo+triac followed by weeks of clen+triac. Taper up to 3servings of each per day then back down. Suggestions? questions? comments?
Also I recently heard on another board that cytomel is less risky to use than triac. MS clue me in.
WW ||166.93.76.129||reg||
Z||000015||MS||05-15-2000||07:23 PM||mad.scientist55@hushmail.com||Whatever else you may take, please stay away from Triac on your diet. It really is bad news, not just in terms of side effects but also as a jump-start for your thyroid. If your thyroid really crashes you should first consider taking a few days off your diet. If that doesn't work THEN you might consider T3. Even then be aware that T3 is very catabolic on a carbohydrate restricted diet. If you use it make sure you've got muscle to burn!
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The Mad Scientist
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Z||000016||WonderWoman||05-16-2000||11:00 AM||wonderwoman@thewirehouse.com||Thanks for the imput MS.
Quick question, could you go into a bit more detail as to why one would use t3 as opposed to triac. I think I can handle a bit of science today (smile). I've heard it has something to do with the conversion that has to take place for triac to become 'available'?
Any other experiences or imput is welcome.
WW
P.S. Would supplimental yohimbie help the effectiveness of the adipo combo? As a female that weighs inexcess of 175lbs, it seems that the amount of Y in adipo is not quite enough. LadyJaye and JayeLynn care to add imput?||204.131.210.1||reg|| Z||000017||LadyJaye||05-16-2000||12:22 PM||suzannec1978@aol.com||I agree WW, the amount of yohimbine in both adipo and MD6 does seem small but I haven't done enough research on yohimbine to really say for sure. I think Mrs. Texas Guns knows a bit about yohimbine...maybe she can help?||152.163.197.183||reg|| Z||000018||Texas Guns||05-16-2000||01:24 PM||texas_guns@hotmail.com||How much yohimbine is in MD6 to start with?||209.39.225.149||reg|| Z||000019||LadyJaye||05-16-2000||07:46 PM||suzannec1978@aol.com||there is 5 mgs. per 2 capsules of yohimbine in MD6||152.163.205.9||reg|| Z||000020||MS||05-16-2000||08:48 PM||mad.scientist55@hushmail.com||Yup. 2.5mg yohimbine per MD6 capsule and 2.75 per Adipo. For a 175 lb person you would want around 16 mg yohimbine (total)for your A.M. dose.
And if your in the mood for a bit of science, you should visit http://www.mesomorphosis.com/exclusive/gundill/thyroid.htm
for a good 'lay'interpretation of the differences between T3 and Triac.
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The Mad Scientist
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Z||000021||WonderWoman||05-17-2000||12:42 PM||wonderwoman@thewirehouse.com||Wow!! Read this info about you and your thyroid. Thanks MS for an extremely informative post. No Triac for me. Here's a question. How would the addition of gear effect this whole process? Say for example one would add winny to a adipo triac stack? Would the anabolic effect of the winny negate or even eliminate the thyroid shut down? Would the enhanced protein synthesis outweigh the negative effects of the triac? I imagine it would all be dose dependant. A bit less tirac with a bit more protein and winny? Questions? comments?
WW ||204.131.210.1||reg||
Z||000022||MS||05-17-2000||03:13 PM||mad.scientist55@hushmail.com||Yes WW. That is how both T3 and Triac are traditionally used, ie with A/S. The A/S does not negate the effects of thyroid catabolism, it merely reduces the losses. This is true of dieting in general-you will lose muscle with or without A/S, it's just a matter of how much. A VERY general rule of thumb is that WITHOUT steroids you will lose around 2 lb of muscle for every 8 pounds total loss, and around 1 lb per 8 WITH steroids. When you're on thyroids plus A/s the figure is closer to the 2 out of 8 lbs, in other words about the same as dieting without steroids. This guideline assumes 'perfect' diet and exercise form, such as plenty of protein, not too much cardio, not too low on the calories, etc....
From a practical standpoint, if you want to use thyroid meds I would suggest that you increase your A/S intake to coincide with the start of the meds. A good cutting cycle would ideally start out with the lowest A/S dose that will preserve muscle and gradually increase to a maximum near the end of the cycle, which is also when you would throw in the T3/Triac and clenbuterol.
Well that's one opinion anyway.
P.S. Just re-read WW's last post and thought it was worth pointing out that A/S do not prevent the shutdown of the thyroid. They actually cause a decrease in thyroid function even when you're not dieting which is why many Pro Bodybuilders take year round low-dose T3. But that's really a subject for another day.
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The Mad Scientist
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Z||000023||Artemis||05-18-2000||01:12 AM||huntress@operamail.com|| Still curious regarding the yohimbine and alpha receptors: Which subtype of alpha 2 receptors are on the fatty tissue? Can the number of these receptors be down-regulated? Anyone know? And does anyone have experience with beta 3 catecholamines to activate the brown fat? ||131.104.100.138||reg||
Z||000024||MS||05-18-2000||03:49 PM||mad.scientist55@hushmail.com||Welcome Artemis
Yohimbine is an agonist at pre-synaptic alpha-2 adrenoreceptors. Unlike the Beta adrenoreceptors there are no pharmacologically distinct subclasses of alpha receptors (although there has recently been found a post-synaptic alpha-2 receptor). Yohimbine would not work for fat mobilization if these receptors were down-regulated since it's fat mobilizing effects are a result of stimulating these receptors. A better question would be 'is there a way we can up-regulate these receptors?' And I don't know the answer to that one.
As for Beta-3 antagonists, I hope you're referring to the likes of ephedrine and norephedrine. If so then the answer is yes, there is plenty of experience with those drugs on this board. Both these drugs mimic the effects of adrenaline/epinephrine and stimulate increased brown fat metabolism (via blockade of beta-3 recptors).
Clear as mud?
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The Mad Scientist
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Z||000025||WonderWoman||05-18-2000||05:17 PM||wonderwoman@thewirehouse.com||Ok. Let me make sure I got this right.
A/S will only assist in muscle sparing while dieting. Triac and t3 work via metabolic enhancement and are unforgiving when it comes to the consumption of muscle tissue.
Ideally, a cutting cycle would include low doses of mild A/S in conjunction with e/c/a cycled every 2 weeks with clen. If one were to decide to use t3 or triac it would best be used at the end of a cutting cycle making sure to taper up and down to prevent or at least lessen any thyroid downregulation that may occur. Whew, that was a mouthful. How about a wrench for the soup. Let's say we want to add nolvadex to this mix? I'm thinking for the last 10 days - 2 weeks of the cycle to achieve that contest only ripped to shreads look. Comments? questions? Aint this fun!!!
WW
P.S. Let's hear from everyone. ||204.131.210.1||reg||
Z||000026||MS||05-18-2000||06:05 PM||mad.scientist55@hushmail.com||Phew. I reckon you've pretty much got it WonderWoman. A/S can act in 2 kinda ways. During a bulking cycle you could consider them to be "anabolic" as their name implies, but they also act anti-catabolically, which is where they are of particular benefit for cutting. I should add that inhibition of T3 is only really an A/S problem when you're taking large doses. I don't think it's a major concern for most women on this board.
I'd start the Nolvadex at least a month before you want to look your best. It takes longer to kick-in than something like T3. Go for 20 mg per day. As for the thyroid in all of this, I'm emailing you some more info (since you want to do it right).
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The Mad Scientist
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Z||000027||Artemis||05-26-2000||01:56 AM||huntress@operamail.com||Clear, but backwards. Took me a day (or three) to get it straight. ie. alpha 2 activation in fat cells inhibits lipolysis, so alpha 2 should be blocked or downregulated. ie. yohimbine is an alpha antagonist. Beta-3 should be activated, not blocked, as ephedrine is a non-selective beta agonist. I was thinking along the lines of a selective beta-3 agonist. This way the heart/vessels will be minimally stimulated (ie. beta-1 activity) with fewer muscle tremors (from beta-2). Seemed to work well for grown beagle dogs:
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/88/23/10774
just hit Download (in blue) on the left side of the screen...
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Z||000028||MS||05-28-2000||03:55 PM||mad.scientist55@hushmail.com||Interesting. Let's get some and try it!
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The Mad Scientist
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Z||000029||avalanche||05-30-2000||07:19 PM||||Check out Lipokinetics by Syntrax, better than anything else out there.The usnic acid in it is similar to "dnp" ||205.188.195.57||reg||
Z||000030||WonderWoman||05-31-2000||02:06 PM||wonderwoman@thewirehouse.com||My undrestanding about usnic acid is that it is a "no-no". Anyone care to explain? Come on MS and Artemis, we're counting on ya'll.
WW||204.131.210.1||reg||
Z||000031||MS||05-31-2000||04:22 PM||mad.scientist55@hushmail.com||I won't be taking lipokinetix myself. When the clinical trials have been published OR 1000's of bodybuilders have used it and shown that it is 1) effective and 2) safe, then I might think about it if I can't lose weight the traditional way. Syntrax's marketing is very clever though. Heck, a legal supplement to lose weight without hardly dieting, with no dangerous side effects.
There are NO published studies on the use of usnic acid (that I can find)as a weight loss agent. It's a good antimicrobial, and may have some applications in arresting certain cancers, but it is also suspected of being a mitogen and could well be mutagenic/carcinogenic if abused.
I have no plans to use DNP or Usnic acid, but then I'm not desperate to lose weight at any cost to my health.
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The Mad Scientist
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