375mgEW Test-e only - looking for constrictive 1st timer advice

[cunninglinguist]

First of all - Merry Christmas, guys. May 2008 bring many more lean lbs.


Which is why I've been hanging around these boards for just over a year now. Been researching the pro's & cons of juice - variety, compatability, PCT - post cycle therapy - - post cycle therapy - - post cycle therapy - , etc.

So to get to the point I've finally made enough gains (sure I could probably gain more with a few more years of natty training - but no point in talking me out of it now as I've made up my mind, simple as that) to feel ready to take it to the next level.

I've had bloodwork done twice in the last year and concluded that my natural test levels are on the low side. Whether or not this explains my very slow gains in the 5 years I've lifted or not I can't say 100% for sure, but nutrition and training is up to scratch. I have long limbs & tendons and quite short muscle bellies, which doesn't help in the mass department.
Now at 216 lbs 6'0", BF around 15%

I am starting end of March so as to give me some time to get my BF% down to at least 12%, I don't want to start the cycle with a layer of fat coverng my muscles + I need to lose the blubber anyway so this seems motivation enough.


I now have found a source of 250mg/cc vials of test enanthate, going to use 1.5 cc's, ie. 375mg every 6 days.
This is roughly 7-8 times as much weekly total testoterone as in my system normally, and this figure will of course go up as the weeks go by seen as Enanthate's half life will allow continuous build up the total amount of T in my body. This will hopefully allow me to gain betw. 10 and 15 lbs. of lean mass if all goes well.

I'll be upping my total protein intake to about 2.2gr per lbs. bodyweight. a day.

PCT tools I already have. AIFM, which I've used for a while now, during and after cycle, and Clomid @50mg/ED for 3 weeks.




I'd welcome any general or specific advice experienced users have concerning this and any other 1st time cycle, and also what the ideas are on n° of weeks for the cycle. Would you advise 8 or 10 weeks? And why?

Also looking for people's tips on how to keep gains.

[access]

Congrats to you man!

You have done virtually everything a first time should do. This to me shows a great deal of maturity and have little doubt your more than rerady for your first cycle and with your research you should make some great gains.

I agree with your planned cycle. It's a great first go round. Nice and simple. Only possible thing you may want to consider is a little kickstart with an oral like Dianabol - methandrostenolone - or perhaps some test testosterone propionate in first 4 weeks especially if you decide to only do 8-10 weeks. If was me I would run it out to 12 weeks. At 12 weeks you should be able to take full advantage of the test E.

I have never used AIFM but have seen posts here on EF recommending it so I guess is fine and you state you have good experience with it so that is the best thing you can rely on. I would not be using Clomid. Don't like it all. If was me nolva would be my selective estrogen receptor modulator of choice for PCT. Much less sides to worry about and works better at a lower dose. 20mgs/day is sufficient for 3-4 weeks.

Keeping gains has a lot to do with PCT which you have covered. The other improtant issue here is diet. Needs to be kept on track through PCT in tandem with solid training.

Best of Luck man!

[jumpmaster82]

i think your the first newbie ive seen on here that might actually be ready for gear. i can tell you researched alot, which alot of noobs dont. looks like a good first cycle.

[cunninglinguist]

I appreciate the positive feedback, guys.

Have always been very experimentive with supplements, diet and training and I am just too darn curious NOT to try a cycle. But I need to understand what a particular food or compound does for my body.

This is one of the reasons I'm opting for a test-e only. No offence to other more expierenced lifters but I don't want to frontload with anything. I need to feel, see and experience exactly what this stuff does (or doesn't do...) for me. That means having only ONE exogenous compound in my blood for the cycle.

I'm not a big risk taker and have to feel I've got things sussed down to the last detail

The Nolvaldex - tamoxifen citrate - vs. Clomid argument is one I haven't found a satisfactory answer to even after combing the whole of this board. Seems to be very subjective.

But as I understand it Clomiphene is the one that kick-starts your balls back into action so as to restore your natural sperm&test production, and that is what I'm looking for in conjunction with blocking the effects of estro (with AIFM) after the exogenous test has dropped and eventually gone.

[access]

This might be enlightening to you on the subject of nolva V's Clomid and test Stimulation. Originally written by Bill Llewellyn:

Most people use Nolvadex to combat gynecomastia over Clomid anyway, so that is an easy sell. And for cholesterol, well, most bodybuilders unfortunately pay little attention to this important issue, so by way of disinterest, another easy opinion to discuss. But when it comes to using Nolvadex for increasing endogenous testosterone release, bodybuilders just do not want to hear it. They only seem to want Clomid. I can only guess that this is based on a long rooted misunderstanding of the actions of the two drugs. In this article I would therefore like to discuss the specifics for these two agents, and explain clearly the usefulness of Nolvadex for the specific purpose of increasing testosterone production.

Clomid and Nolvadex
I am not sure how Clomid and Nolvadex became so separated in the minds of bodybuilders. They certainly should not be. Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. This means that in certain tissues they can block the effects of estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the receptor, while in others they can act as actual estrogens, activating the receptor. In men, both of these drugs act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). lh - leutenizing hormone - output by the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes. Both drugs do this, but for some reason bodybuilders persist in thinking that Clomid is the only drug good at stimulating testosterone. What you will find with a little investigation however is that not only is Nolvadex useful for the same purpose, it should actually be the preferred agent of the two.

Studies conducted in the late 1970's at the University of Ghent in Belgium make clear the advantages of using Nolvadex instead of Clomid for increasing testosterone levels (1). Here, researchers looked the effects of Nolvadex and Clomid on the endocrine profiles of normal men, as well as those suffering from low sperm counts (oligospermia). For our purposes, the results of these drugs on hormonally normal men are obviously the most relevant. What was found, just in the early parts of the study, was quite enlightening. Nolvadex, used for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline, which was on par with the effect of 150mg of Clomid daily for the same duration (the testosterone increase was slightly, but not significantly, better for Clomid). We must remember though that this is the effect of three 50mg tablets of Clomid. With the price of both a 50mg Clomid and 20mg Nolvadex typically very similar, we are already seeing a cost vs. results discrepancy forming that strongly favors the Nolvadex side.

Pituitary Sensitivity to GnRH
But something more interesting is happening. Researchers were also conducting GnRH stimulation tests before and after various points of treatment with Nolvadex and Clomid, and the two drugs had markedly different results. These tests involved infusing patients with 100mcg of GnRH and measuring the output of pituitary lh - leutenizing hormone - in response. The focus of this test is to see how sensitive the pituitary is to Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone. The more sensitive the pituitary, the more lh - leutenizing hormone - will be released. The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values. This is contrast to 10 days of treatment with 150mg Clomid, which was shown to consistently DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (more lh - leutenizing hormone - was released before treatment). As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels. At this point the same 20mg dosage was also raising testosterone and lh - leutenizing hormone - levels to an average of 183% and 172% of base values, respectively, which again is measurably higher than what was noted 10 days into therapy. Within 10 days of treatment Clomid is already exerting an effect that is causing the pituitary to become slightly desensitized to GnRH, while prolonged use of Nolvadex serves only to increase pituitary sensitivity to this hormone. That is not to say Clomid won't increase testosterone if taken for the same 6 week time period. Quite the opposite is true. But we are, however, noticing an advantage in Nolvadex.

The Estrogen Clomid
The above discrepancies are likely explained by differences in the estrogenic nature of the two compounds. The researchers' clearly support this theory when commenting in their paper, "The difference in response might be attributable to the weak intrinsic estrogenic effect of Clomid, which in this study manifested itself by an increase in transcortin and testosterone/estradiol-binding globulin [SHBG] levels; this increase was not observed after tamoxifen treatment". In reviewing other theories later in the paper, such as interference by increased androgen or estrogen levels, they persist in noting that increases in these hormones were similar with both drug treatments, and state that," …a role of the intrinsic estrogenic activity of Clomid which is practically absent in Tamoxifen seems the most probable explanation".

Although these two are related anti-estrogens, they appear to act very differently at different sites of action. Nolvadex seems to be strongly anti-estrogenic at both the hypothalamus and pituitary, which is in contrast to Clomid, which although a strong anti-estrogen at the hypothalamus, seems to exhibit weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary. To find further support for this we can look at an in-vitro animal study published in the American Journal of Physiology in February 1981 (2). This paper looks at the effects of Clomid and Nolvadex on the GnRH stimulated release of lh - leutenizing hormone - from cultured rat pituitary cells. In this paper, it was noted that incubating cells with Clomid had a direct estrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cell sensitivity, exerting a weaker but still significant effect compared to estradiol. Nolvadex on the other hand did not have any significant effect on lh - leutenizing hormone - response. Furthermore it mildly blocked the effects of estrogen when both were incubated in the same culture.

Conclusion
To summarize the above research succinctly, Nolvadex is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs, at least where the hpta - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis) is concerned. This fact enables Nolvadex to offer the male bodybuilder certain advantages over Clomid. This is especially true at times when we are looking to restore a balanced hpta - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - , and would not want to desensitize the pituitary to GnRH. This could perhaps slow recovery to some extent, as the pituitary would require higher amounts of hypothalamic GnRH in the presence of Clomid in order to get the same level of lh - leutenizing hormone - stimulation.

Nolvadex also seems preferred from long-term use, for those who find anti-estrogens effective enough at raising testosterone levels to warrant using as anabolics. Here Nolvadex would seem to provide a better and more stable increase in testosterone levels, and likely will offer a similar or greater effect than Clomid for considerably less money. The potential rise in SHBG levels with Clomid, supported by other research (3), is also cause for concern, as this might work to allow for comparably less free active testosterone compared to Nolvadex as well. Ultimately both drugs are effective anti-estrogens for the prevention of gynecomastia and elevation of endogenous testosterone, however the above research provides enough evidence for me to choose Nolvadex every time.

References:

1. Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men. Vermeulen, Comhaire. Fertil and Steril 29 (1978) 320-7

2. Disparate effect of Clomiphene and tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro. Adashi EY, Hsueh AJ, Bambino TH, Yen SS. Am J Physiol 1981 Feb;240(2):E125-30

3. The effect of Clomiphene citrate on sex hormone binding globulin in normospermic and oligozoospermic men. Adamopoulos, Kapolla et al. Int J Androl 4 (1981) 639-45

[al_ny]

sounds good. i might want to start with 250 mg per week to see how you react. also i would get some HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - .

[all the whey]

Quote posted by Jumpmaster82 i think your the first newbie ive seen on here that might actually be ready for gear. i can tell you researched alot, which alot of noobs dont. looks like a good first cycle.

This makes me happy! I haven't seen this in yrs.


I didn't see his age but from his lifting and weight progress I assume he is over 25.

[cunninglinguist]

Quote posted by all the whey This makes me happy! I haven't seen this in yrs. I didn't see his age but from his lifting and weight progress I assume he is over 25.

Nice guess. 27

[slamminshaun]

Quote posted by all the whey This makes me happy! I haven't seen this in yrs. I didn't see his age but from his lifting and weight progress I assume he is over 25.

I love this freakin' site!

Great info guys...I'm in the same boat as him, lurking for a while to get info, and now steppin' up to ask questions to fill in some blanks. My trainer (yes, I wasted a few bucks I know) says I'm close to my natural plateau. Amazing how quickly the body can comeback after a long layoff....

I think my first cycle will be very similar to his: test-E, Nolvadex, HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - ...the only toss-up will be Dianabol - methandrostenolone - to kickstart. Like him, I'm not sure I want to run 2 at the same time in case there's a problem so I can better identify what the problem is...with Nolvadex present in the cycle, do you still need Arimdex or is that overkill?

[all the whey]

Quote posted by slamminshaun I love this freakin' site! Great info guys...I'm in the same boat as him, lurking for a while to get info, and now steppin' up to ask questions to fill in some blanks. My trainer (yes, I wasted a few bucks I know) says I'm close to my natural plateau. Amazing how quickly the body can comeback after a long layoff.... I think my first cycle will be very similar to his: test-E, Nolvadex, HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - - human chorionic gonadotropin - ...the only toss-up will be Dianabol - methandrostenolone - to kickstart. Like him, I'm not sure I want to run 2 at the same time in case there's a problem so I can better identify what the problem is...with Nolvadex present in the cycle, do you still need Arimdex or is that overkill?

Nice work guys!~


I don't think you need the Dianabol - methandrostenolone - for your first either.

Don't go too high on the Arimidex. Most guys I know start at .25 eod. Then, go up if needed. I only use nolvadex for PCT. (and just in case)