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Author Topic:   Alpha Lipolic Acid
BSmooth

Amateur Bodybuilder

Posts: 184
From:New Jersey
Registered: Dec 2000

posted January 21, 2001 02:31 PM

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How do you use this supplement? I was reading an article which stated that you can gain muscle while on a diet by using alpha lipolic acid. Supposedly, on a normal cutting diet of 6 small meals, your insulin levels aren't raised enough to shuttle aminos and nutrients into the muscle cell. This article stated that by using alpha lipolic acid you can help shuttle in nutrients without raising your caloric intake too high. Any ideas?


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riskybiz007

Pro Bodybuilder

Posts: 500
From:CA, usa
Registered: Jun 2000

posted January 21, 2001 03:24 PM

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my own personal experience with it is you need at least 200mg for an insulin action taken at one time. I would take 200mg 30min. before eating, or with protein shake right after the gym. It's also a great antioxidant.


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Valdez

Elite Bodybuilder

Posts: 1168
From:wa
Registered: Sep 2000

posted January 21, 2001 05:30 PM

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you take it in the morning. 300 mg upon waking (your body is in a fasted state) then you consume 100-200 grams of CARBS, (mostly simple carbs, like fructose) then a little later have a protein shake.

it is not necessary to take ALA post workout, your body is in dire need of CARBS to replace glycogen post workout and can actually transport glucose very efficiently without the need for excess insulin (there is an insulin like pathway that is activated after intense exercise)


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BSmooth

Amateur Bodybuilder

Posts: 184
From:New Jersey
Registered: Dec 2000

posted January 21, 2001 05:56 PM

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Ok but whats the point? Does this really help you retain/build muscle while dieting?


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shmucko

Amateur Bodybuilder

Posts: 251
From:FL, USA
Registered: Apr 2000

posted January 23, 2001 05:32 AM

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I forget all the particulars why, but I seem to gain less around the middle, love handles and "belly", when I am on higher carb intake to gain weight. Couldn't comment on dieting.


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BackDoc

Pro Bodybuilder

Posts: 372
From:
Registered: Feb 2000

posted January 23, 2001 09:48 PM

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As to losing bodyfat while on high carb dieting phase...that's normal for some people. Some people gain fat, some lose fat when taking in carbs. It all depends on how efficient your mitochondria are. The more efficient these little powerhouses are, the less ingested nutrients will be metabolized. Chronically thin people have very efficient mitochondria, so they don't store everything that makes it to their bloodstream. People who gain weight every mouthful they take in have highly inefficient mitochondria...so their cell metabolism doesn't get a chance to metabolize all ingested nutrients for energy production...but rather for storage without the nutrients going through any degree of uncoupling.
This is why people who go on low carb diets and don't lose weight get frustrated. This is also why some people lose excessive amounts of fat...their cells are lazy in the first place and by taking in calories such as fats that take almost twice the effort to break down their cells are still lazy and work at the same lazy rate.

Here's an analogy of what I'm speaking of:
Imagine a car production assembly plant. They make Geo Metros. The workers are paid hourly rather than on quota.They can produce a thousand cars a day. All of a sudden the management decides to start producing high quality Ferraris. Since this car is infinitely more complex than a Geo Metro, no longer do the workers push out a thousand a day...but now they only make 50 per day...since they don't make any commision, they don't have any incentive to work harder. So the end result is lowered output of production by virtue of time spent paying attention to detail.
In this analogy, the workers are the mitochondria (energy production parts of cells). The plant is like your metabolic rate. The cars are like the energy output. As long as the basic rate of work is unchanged, the only thing that is affected is gross output. Those who do well on low carb diets are simply able to do so because their energy producing parts of the cells are not working any harder, but only having less materials to work with.


As far as taking Alpha Lipoic Acid, it's a great agent for getting the lactic acid out of the muscles and reducing the normally inefficient manner of muscle recovery and regeneration. It does this by improving the efficacy of Vitamin C in the body. Vitamin C can reduce lactic acid at certain times of the day and post workout is no exception. Since ALA improves the Vitamin C effective ratio, then it also must be surmised to reduce cortisol buildup---since one is a definite factor of the other.

Just a nutshell.


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riskybiz007

Pro Bodybuilder

Posts: 500
From:CA, usa
Registered: Jun 2000

posted January 23, 2001 11:30 PM

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shouldn't it also as an insulin potentiator help use some carbs for energy, versus being stored as fat? ?
I don't know what's behind the theory of taking 300mg before breakfast. What's the theory on that?
I have heard of people using it for example to help them get into ketosis quicker. And others use it before morning running to help out with carb depletion so they can get into fat burning quicker.
Just wondering your guyses other takes on this...
lates


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cockdezl

Pro Bodybuilder

Posts: 585
From:
Registered: 2000

posted January 26, 2001 10:07 PM

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Obese individuals tend to have higher rates of free fatty acids present in the blood stream than lean individuals, after a meal. This is ironically related to the fact that they are preferentially utilizing fats as a fuel source, while the lean people are oxidizing glucose after meals.

But if fat people are using fat for fuel then why are getting fat? This seems to be due to the fact that they don't effectively process (oxidize/store) glucose. Because they don't use glucose properly, the body elevates fatty acids to be used for fuel, but this unfortunately increases insulin resistance. So, while the body is using fat for fuel it is also converting glucose into fat in the liver and storing it.

Insulin sensitizing agents like chromium, vanadyl, metformin, and ALA are theorized to aid in obesity by increasing the effectiveness of insulin in disposing of glucose. ALA seems to work by increasing the concentrations of glucose transporters on the cell surfaces, thus allowing for more glucose to be taken up by the cells.


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riskybiz007

Pro Bodybuilder

Posts: 500
From:CA, usa
Registered: Jun 2000

posted January 27, 2001 12:55 AM

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thanks for info... i was wondering how or when would you recommend someone take ALA? There are theories of taking it before morning cardio to become hypoglycemic quicker, or valdez theory. When and at what doseages would you recomend?
thanks


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Valdez

Elite Bodybuilder

Posts: 1168
From:wa
Registered: Sep 2000

posted January 27, 2001 02:12 AM

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thanks for the info cockdezl, good to hear from you.

"valdez theory" haha, I would say it is more of a rough hypothesis. however it is true that post workout it prob isn't necessary for healthy individuals.


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cockdezl

Pro Bodybuilder

Posts: 585
From:
Registered: 2000

posted January 29, 2001 02:45 PM

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I don't have any personal experience with ALA, but I would assume that the goals would determine the dosing. For those who are using it to enter ketosis, then using prior to exercise would be useful, since ALA has been shown to cause hypoglycemia in fasting subjects. Probably a decent size acute dose (300-400mg) would be more effective at reducing BG, but one risks the chance of a hypoglycemic reaction. I have no experience with ALA, so I can't tell if large doses are better than smaller spread out doses for this effect.

As for simple glucose management, then I think that an initial front-loading would or equal dosing pattern. For front-loading, one could take 400mg in the morning with a meal, and then two more 100mg doses with subsequent meals. This would ensure high blood levels and then the later doses would maintain high blood levels. The second choice is simply 200mg with three meals.

I haven't seen any research as to what types of half-life ALA has, so I can't find out which is better. Likewise, I don't know at what dose the hypoglycemic effect becomes noticable, so I don't know if 600mg spread out is different than one 600mg dose in the morning.


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BackDoc

Pro Bodybuilder

Posts: 372
From:
Registered: Feb 2000

posted January 29, 2001 11:38 PM

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Keep in mind that taking too much of a dose at one time can cause acid indigestion. Pretty severe if you take a full day's dose all at once. The research indicates that the best dose is around 800 mg divided. Apparently in one of the research articles, it doesn't benefit taking any more than that.

I've found that 300 mg twice a day with carbohydrate containing meals is what is best for me. You have to experiment. If you take ALA in the a.m. without food, it can lower your bloodsugar to the extent that it can cause a mild hypoglycemic incident. I'm not sure how that will affect everyone since we're all different. Just for me, it's best to take with meals in the above dose being the max.


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